Reasons to be cheerful

[smittims]

Your remark about 'what we have lost as a nation' reminded me of my 'bee in a bonnet' : I've always believed the decline of Britain , in fact all the problems we've had over the last 100 years (the economy, WW2) are due to the disastrous decision to declare war on Germany on August 4 1914. I like to think Elgar,who had many German friends, would agree.

Amd re Bach, well, he was one of the supreme masters,,but over the years I've come to prefer Haydn and Handel. They're much more companionable. Living with a supreme master can be wearing!

[LMcD]

I was responding to Ein Heldenleben and quoting him, not you, as should be clear if you check back I've just rechecked that point (again) and I seem to be correct.



If that satisfies you for a 24/7 (168-hour) radio station it only indicates that you don't rely on the station as much as Radio 3 listeners used to. And were able to. Doesn't it?

Whereas you can bog off to Lucy Worsley Investigates or Neil Diamond in Concert if you're tired of R3.

I seem to be in serious danger of annoying somebody, so I'll content myself with pointing out that, for me least, the end of episode 6 of series 3 of Line Of Duty was as thrilling as the end of the first movement of Sibelius's 5th symphony, and then withdraw, my enjoyment unmarred, from this particular discussion.

[LMcD]

[QUOTE=smittims;n1329210]Your remark about 'what we have lost as a nation' reminded me of my 'bee in a bonnet' : I've always believed the decline of Britain , in fact all the problems we've had over the last 100 years (the economy, WW2) are due to the disastrous decision to declare war on Germany on August 4 1914. I like to think Elgar,who had many German friends, would agree.

Amd re Bach, well, he was one of the supreme masters,,but over the years I've come to prefer Haydn and Handel. They're much more companionable. Living with a supreme master can be wearing![/QUOTE]

My wife hasn't complained (so far, at any rate). As for the start of the decline of Britain - well, the Boers gave us a right old run-around, didn't they?

[french frank]

there's hope for me yet!

There's hope for all of us, even though it becomes more and more difficult for some of us to believe it as we witness how things progress.

And as far as Bach is concerned, I give him (off the cuff) about 50 more years at the rate that human beings are becoming less and less able to appreciate [literal sense] the culture of the past (in its sense of 20 years ago).

[french frank]

I seem to be in serious danger of annoying somebody, so I'll content myself with pointing out that, for me least, the end of episode 6 of series 3 of Line Of Duty was as thrilling as the end of the first movement of Sibelius's 5th symphony, and then withdraw, my enjoyment unmarred, from this particular discussion.

I can't speak for those here, or anywhere else, whom you might possibly annoy. But I respect 100% your assurance that for you 'episode 6 of series 3 of Line Of Duty was as thrilling as the end of the first movement of Sibelius's 5th symphony'. As (the comedian ) Eric Morecambe might have said: "There's no answer to that."

I personally prefer Sibelius 4 but that is for my own private reasons

[Padraig]

It's an interesting point. There were people on this forum who 'discovered' classical music through the old 'Your 100 Best Tunes'. But the move was from R2 to something 'better' in terms of classical music. As R3 imports more from R2 (and CFM) there is one R3 audience that gets pushed off the edge with nowhere else to go. And new R3 listeners shouldn't even aspire to something 'better' because there's nowhere else to go for them.You've reached the peak, folks. (If eventually weighed in the balance and found wanting.)

Although they do say De gustibus non disputandum, I like discussing relative tastes, in particular to reflect on the difficult question of Why do I like A and not B, while you like B rather than A?There might be something in considering why I wonder about the question in the first place and other people don't.

I must take issue, f f, firstly about Your 100 Best Tunes', and secondly about your bringing taste in as something significant in a person's character.
I always liked 100 Best and came to it on Radio 2/3 long after I discovered classical music. I also liked Alan Keith whom I believed liked the music he played and was not shy about it. Songs especially appeal to me whether it's an opera aria, a music hall song, a sentimental ballad or any of Shubert's songs. So, please but me no buts about that venerable programme. It was, among other things, the home of short pieces.
On taste, I have to admit that I got my comeuppance here on the (old) message boards on the subject of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. For the first time I learned that Mozart was not the genius I thought he was, or rather that my choice of that piece was revealing of poor taste. I pulled my horns in after that.
Needless to say I accept that taste, either in programmes or in music, is personal - a bit like appearance perhaps. And one is stuck with it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm not sure that you're making your point here. You pick on a single example about which there would be little dispute around here that it was excellent. There would be no respectable argument for complaining about the Batsashvili recital on R3, even if one was not fond of solo piano works, or Haydn, Beethoven and Brahms. But one live recital from Wigmore highlights the fact that the lunchtime recitals have been almost wiped out - except for the Wigmore Monday recital. So be grateful, by all means, and it's being so cheerful as keeps us going after all.

All you're doing is exchanging, mainly with LMcD, examples of another performance/work that was excellent. You have a long way to go to demonstrate that there is 'plenty' of this during R3's daytime schedules 06.30-19.30. And most of that arrives unannounced. 'Plenty' of CFM-style music - and tonight you can even hear the 29th performance in the last year of The Lark Ascending, and other CFM favourites.

I don’t think I ever claimed nor tried to demonstrate that there is plenty of extended music 06.30 -19.30 but it’s not totally absent.

This Monday Op 130 Juilliards live
Friday Enigma
Thursday Bruckner 4 (good performance that )
Weds Matthias Piano Concerto (how often does that get an airing ?)
Tues Sibelius Violin concerto
Mon Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto

In addition COTW featured Imogen Holst’s Phantasy Quartet.Cello Sonata, Suite for Strings ,

Many of those pieces would never get an outing on CFM .

[Ein Heldenleben]

I must take issue, f f, firstly about Your 100 Best Tunes', and secondly about your bringing taste in as something significant in a person's character.
I always liked 100 Best and came to it on Radio 2/3 long after I discovered classical music. I also liked Alan Keith whom I believed liked the music he played and was not shy about it. Songs especially appeal to me whether it's an opera aria, a music hall song, a sentimental ballad or any of Shubert's songs. So, please but me no buts about that venerable programme. It was, among other things, the home of short pieces.
On taste, I have to admit that I got my comeuppance here on the (old) message boards on the subject of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. For the first time I learned that Mozart was not the genius I thought he was, or rather that my choice of that piece was revealing of poor taste. I pulled my horns in after that.
Needless to say I accept that taste, either in programmes or in music, is personal - a bit like appearance perhaps. And one is stuck with it.

oh dear - Stick to your guns on Eine Kleine . It’s a superb piece of 18th light music. Mozart could write everything from 18th century pop to music that changed opera and the symphony for ever.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Your remark about 'what we have lost as a nation' reminded me of my 'bee in a bonnet' : I've always believed the decline of Britain , in fact all the problems we've had over the last 100 years (the economy, WW2) are due to the disastrous decision to declare war on Germany on August 4 1914. I like to think Elgar,who had many German friends, would agree.

Amd re Bach, well, he was one of the supreme masters,,but over the years I've come to prefer Haydn and Handel. They're much more companionable. Living with a supreme master can be wearing!

Well if you look at National debt you are absolutely right. We “bankrupted” ourselves in both wars and had a damn good go at it again in the financial crisis and the way money was thrown away during Covid.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's hope for all of us, even though it becomes more and more difficult for some of us to believe it as we witness how things progress.

And as far as Bach is concerned, I give him (off the cuff) about 50 more years at the rate that human beings are becoming less and less able to appreciate [literal sense] the culture of the past (in its sense of 20 years ago).

My word FF you’re sounding like a real pessimist. It’s not that bad . He’s never been more popular. His star has been in the ascendant since the 1850’s and he’s played and sung constantly all around the world. At any one time there must be a million people playing or listening to him .

[french frank]

My word FF you’re sounding like a real pessimist. It’s not that bad . He’s never been more popular. His star has been in the ascendant since the 1850’s and he’s played and sung constantly all around the world. At any one time there must be a million people playing or listening to him .

Rather than Bach in particular, I'm assessing (from my limited and biased perspective ) the way that what we have thought of, globally, as the canon of the 'serious arts' (for example, opera, world theatre, literature, 'classical music') are not being embraced by younger audiences or given the same attention in universities. The arts are not even being supported now when it comes down to the hard cash needed to keep them going. National Theatre Wales? ENO?

Good ol' Bach may survive longer than most, longer than the 50 years I'd give him (actually make that 30 - roughly a generation), but first they came for Biber ... I've no idea where you get the figure of a million from, but as the population increases by 70 million every year, that million becomes less and less important!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Rather than Bach in particular, I'm assessing (from my limited and biased perspective ) the way that what we have thought of, globally, as the canon of the 'serious arts' (for example, opera, world theatre, literature, 'classical music') are not being embraced by younger audiences or given the same attention in universities. The arts are not even being supported now when it comes down to the hard cash needed to keep them going. National Theatre Wales? ENO?

Good ol' Bach may survive longer than most, longer than the 50 years I'd give him (actually make that 30 - roughly a generation), but first they came for Biber ... I've no idea where you get the figure of a million from, but as the population increases by 70 million every year, that million becomes less and less important!

Well I play a piece of Bach every day and I’m 1/6 billionth of the world population. If you add all the CD listeners / streamers I don’t think a mill would be wide of the mark. There are supposedly 10,000 teenage pianists in China who can play the Chopin etudes - lord knows how many play the easier Bach - like the two part inventions - great learning pieces . Had a friend who taught piano . His entire year alighted on the C maj Ave Maria prelude - the friend was listening to a dozen performances a day. Pianists regularly schedule the Goldbergs and The P and F’s book 1 and 2 and sell out the Wigmore - even the RFH if it’s Barenboim. His popularity would have amazed musicians in the twenties and thirties.

re your first Par I would very much tend to agree. What’s happening to Eng Lit at Universities is in some ways what’s already happened to music - falling rolls and dept closure. What goes around comes around 800 years ago Music was a core part of the quadrivium (or was it the trivium) and any idea of teaching Eng Lit would have been met with bemusement. Up until the early 20th Eng Lit at Cambridge was , I believe a small option in the classics course.

[LMcD]

I must take issue, f f, firstly about Your 100 Best Tunes', and secondly about your bringing taste in as something significant in a person's character.
I always liked 100 Best and came to it on Radio 2/3 long after I discovered classical music. I also liked Alan Keith whom I believed liked the music he played and was not shy about it. Songs especially appeal to me whether it's an opera aria, a music hall song, a sentimental ballad or any of Shubert's songs. So, please but me no buts about that venerable programme. It was, among other things, the home of short pieces.
On taste, I have to admit that I got my comeuppance here on the (old) message boards on the subject of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. For the first time I learned that Mozart was not the genius I thought he was, or rather that my choice of that piece was revealing of poor taste. I pulled my horns in after that.
Needless to say I accept that taste, either in programmes or in music, is personal - a bit like appearance perhaps. And one is stuck with it.

If only somebody had told me earlier!

[french frank]

I must take issue, f f, firstly about Your 100 Best Tunes', and secondly about your bringing taste in as something significant in a person's character [...] So, please but me no buts about that venerable programme. It was, among other things, the home of short pieces.

I don't understand your point, Padraig. I said that I knew of forum members who came to classical music and R3 by way of Your 100 Best Tunes. I thought that was a point in the programme's favour, not some sort of criticism. But whereas I can be sorry the programme has been discontinued, that doesn't mean I would like it to be revived on R3 because it wouldn't serve the same purpose. All the arguments would suggest R2 is exactly where it should be.

On taste, I have to admit that I got my comeuppance here on the (old) message boards on the subject of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. For the first time I learned that Mozart was not the genius I thought he was, or rather that my choice of that piece was revealing of poor taste.

As I don't know exactly what was said I can't pretend to know what was meant. But you didn't learn that Mozart wasn't the genius you thought he was but you might have been told that. I rate EKN. I rate The Lark Ascending too. But there is a limit to how many times I want to hear them over a limited period of time. Classic FM overplays certain works and R3 has started to do it too.

Needless to say I accept that taste, either in programmes or in music, is personal [ ... ] And one is stuck with it.

I was simply musing on whether there was any connection between personality types and tastes of various kinds. Is there anything that 'explains' taste? I have no answer to the question. My tastes are definitely personal to me, but not unique to me. I don't think 'taste' is completely arbitrary, something you're born with, hence "stuck with".

I was just watching a YouTube performance of Mozart's oboe quartet and the performers were obviously enjoying it. I don't understand why some people feel too intimidated to go to a classical concert while others are unfased by an unfamiliar experience and continue to behave unselfconsciously as they would at a pop concert, others go to listen and observe, curious to discover what it's all about.

[Historian]

Well if you look at National debt you are absolutely right. We “bankrupted” ourselves in both wars and had a damn good go at it again in the financial crisis and the way money was thrown away during Covid.

I agree with you about the financial consequences, however, I am sure most people would agree that there was no rational alternative to declaring war on Nazi Germany in September 1939. I know that you are not claiming there was EH.

Would be interested to discover (again, not from you necessarily) why allowing a militaristic German Empire dominance over Europe would have been Britain's best option in 1914 though.