Meter readings

[Dave2002]

The government sales patter on ASHPs really isn't helpful I think - it gives the impression that it is a straightforward substitution for a fossil fuel boiler, which it isn't in a great many cases. I have a combi boiler so no hot water tank,(or indeed any water tanks) and live in a mid-terrace so the unit can't be 1m away from the boundaries - unless I decide not to have a back door anymore! Other issues, such as the radiators, are more easily dealt with - at a cost and with disruption - but it certainly doesn't compare with just replacing the gas boiler with a new one, which is what I hope to do next year as the current one is now 11 years old and is beginning to need repairs rather than just an annual service.

Sadly this area was yet another of Bojo's jumping on a bandwagon he doesn't understand fully, then not following through. OK - it might not only be Boris who promoted this - there are other examples - the use of hydrogen for different applications etc. People who live in small houses or flats will not have an economically feasible alternative to using gas for some while, though surprisingly I read recently that in Norway many houses use electricity - but not necessarily in the more efficient ways based on ASHPs etc. Just using the equivalent of electric fires, night storage heaters etc. is fine for a country with cheap electricity - probably generated from hydro generators, but not for many other countries. ASHPs could be installed in communities, or blocks of flats, but may not make sense at an individual level, because of space and other considerations. Another possibility is having very much higher insulation standards in the UK, which might then make the brute force electric heater approach work, but there isn't the political will in the UK to ensure that homes are well insulated. It would require a substantial shift in the way things get done [or not] in the UK to make this kind of solution work here. If more housing in the UK were based on communities, which happens in Sweden or even with condominiums in the USA, technical solutions might work, but the UK is very bad at doing things like that - or maybe indeed, most things.

[oddoneout]

Sadly this area was yet another of Bojo's jumping on a bandwagon he doesn't understand fully, then not following through. OK - it might not only be Boris who promoted this - there are other examples - the use of hydrogen for different applications etc. People who live in small houses or flats will not have an economically feasible alternative to using gas for some while, though surprisingly I read recently that in Norway many houses use electricity - but not necessarily in the more efficient ways based on ASHPs etc. Just using the equivalent of electric fires, night storage heaters etc. is fine for a country with cheap electricity - probably generated from hydro generators, but not for many other countries. ASHPs could be installed in communities, or blocks of flats, but may not make sense at an individual level, because of space and other considerations. Another possibility is having very much higher insulation standards in the UK, which might then make the brute force electric heater approach work, but there isn't the political will in the UK to ensure that homes are well insulated. It would require a substantial shift in the way things get done [or not] in the UK to make this kind of solution work here. If more housing in the UK were based on communities, which happens in Sweden or even with condominiums in the USA, technical solutions might work, but the UK is very bad at doing things like that - or maybe indeed, most things.

The insulation of homes, whether retrofitted or through proper building standards, should be at the top of the list so as to reduce demand for whatever fuel is being used. And yes, I am aware that insulation is not a one size fits all(having lived in a building that needed the walls to breathe, and also working in an old listed building) but exceptions should not rule out the general principle. And there is just no excuse for the woeful building standards whether, in terms of minimum requirements or poor quality installation.
It's another issue that isn't mentioned with ASHPs - their efficiency is predicated on a decently insulated space - otherwise it just becomes a poor substitute electric heating system as far as I can make out, since a low temperature system won't cope with a space that constantly sheds heat.
The ASHP bandwaggon is just the latest in a very long line of schemes that largely seem to have failed to achieve. I remember a documentary I saw very many years ago that touched on the initiative(Warm Front?) that was supposed to install storage heaters in "poor" homes that didn't have proper heating(would that have been on the coattails of "cheap" nuclear power?). The heaters were put in, but then not connected up so that they could be used - presumably because the wiring was likely not up to standard in such houses and in any case a new meter would have been needed for the E7 tariff. So tiny front rooms had a great metal box taking up space but they were still having to use the coal fire or plug-in electric heaters.
The more recent batch of schemes, linked as they are to grant applications, requirement to meet pre-conditions, and accredited installers, seem to have become more and more divorced from reality.

[antongould]

The raising of a complaint seems to have generated some positive action I am now to expect a third engineer - with instructions to change whatever needs to be changed - so all will hopefully soon be smart as hell ……

It may interest some to read this part of the complaints section’s response which also appears in communications with EDF’s AI ….


“Smart functionality is not a guaranteed service but preferred. As long as you can read the meters manually they are not faulty.” ….. and I thought the planet would fry without 100% take up ….. a cynic might say suppliers are happy with any customers willing to submit their own readings for billing and won’t move to resolve any smart meter problems they have …..

…… and so Engineer 3 arrived as promised and said that he was from EDF’s “crack” contractors who they used on repeat visits …. for which we, obviously, qualify. To be fair compared with the previous 2 he seemed to very much know what he was doing ….. he took one look at the communications unit and said “ … from those two lights it needs changing …. “. He did this in a very few minutes and a few minutes later electricity readings arrived on the display unit …. but no gas. He looked at his iPad and the gas meter and said “ .. this gas meter has somehow been de-commissioned ….. I will get it sorted … “ But sadly he couldn’t - after pressing buttons and staring at his iPad for 45 minutes he admitted defeat and said he couldn’t wait any longer. He said that the office will check remotely to see if everything has finished and when it has someone will come out and get us 100% smart as opposed to 50% smart in 5 minutes.
I sense the band playing “Believe It If You Like”

[Dave2002]

The insulation of homes, whether retrofitted or through proper building standards, should be at the top of the list so as to reduce demand for whatever fuel is being used. And yes, I am aware that insulation is not a one size fits all(having lived in a building that needed the walls to breathe, and also working in an old listed building) but exceptions should not rule out the general principle. And there is just no excuse for the woeful building standards whether, in terms of minimum requirements or poor quality installation.
It's another issue that isn't mentioned with ASHPs - their efficiency is predicated on a decently insulated space - otherwise it just becomes a poor substitute electric heating system as far as I can make out, since a low temperature system won't cope with a space that constantly sheds heat.
The ASHP bandwaggon is just the latest in a very long line of schemes that largely seem to have failed to achieve. I remember a documentary I saw very many years ago that touched on the initiative(Warm Front?) that was supposed to install storage heaters in "poor" homes that didn't have proper heating(would that have been on the coattails of "cheap" nuclear power?). The heaters were put in, but then not connected up so that they could be used - presumably because the wiring was likely not up to standard in such houses and in any case a new meter would have been needed for the E7 tariff. So tiny front rooms had a great metal box taking up space but they were still having to use the coal fire or plug-in electric heaters.
The more recent batch of schemes, linked as they are to grant applications, requirement to meet pre-conditions, and accredited installers, seem to have become more and more divorced from reality.

Absolutely. The local village hall had ASHPs put in, with some funding from the supplier which is major in this area. Apparently it costs more to run than the previous oil system. The design didn't take into account the fact that it's not used all the time. Nobody wants to book the rooms for a whole day - perhaps just a few hours, and if the hall is booked for an hour or two in the evening, it doesn't get warm fast enough. It should be left on all the time, but that doesn't work with only occasional use times.

Re ASHP and insulation/cold weather - that's perhaps over exaggerated. ASHPs should work down to quite low temperatures, and unless it's permanently cold, the costs may still not be as high as using oil or other forms. However some installers try to capitalise on this by trying to sell [over sell] hybrid oil+ASHP systems which cost a lot more - hoping to get the lion's share of any government largesse, and also "insulating" themselves from complaint by gullible punters - as whichever component doesn't work well, issues can always be blamed on the alternative, or the alternative strategy - "you should have bought the hybrid model". [Yes - it's only £5+k more]

Maybe for care homes, hospitals etc. those would be a good idea, but it's a sledge hammer nut way to do things. Given that even oil heating fails if there is no electricity to pump, then only large installations will go the distance of having a generator to keep things going - back to critical locations - care homes, hospitals etc. Others can just burn wood - if they have a wood or duel fuel burner.

Re insulation in the UK - it's a disaster area. Some homes are built to moderatelly decent standards, though in comparison with Scandinavian homes they are not good. Then - because building homes with good insulation is more expensive, the **** [substitute any word you like here - bonkers, expletives etc.] government creates a different category of homes - called "Affordable" with poorer insulation standards, but they are not affordable anyway for people who are struggling with costs, and generally built to poorer standards.

I'll let you know about your last sentence - but it resonates.

>>The more recent batch of schemes, linked as they are to grant applications, requirement to meet pre-conditions, and accredited installers, seem to have become more and more divorced from reality. <<

Mad world!

[oddoneout]

Absolutely. The local village hall had ASHPs put in, with some funding from the supplier which is major in this area. Apparently it costs more to run than the previous oil system. The design didn't take into account the fact that it's not used all the time. Nobody wants to book the rooms for a whole day - perhaps just a few hours, and if the hall is booked for an hour or two in the evening, it doesn't get warm fast enough. It should be left on all the time, but that doesn't work with only occasional use times.

Re ASHP and insulation/cold weather - that's perhaps over exaggerated. ASHPs should work down to quite low temperatures, and unless it's permanently cold, the costs may still not be as high as using oil or other forms. However some installers try to capitalise on this by trying to sell [over sell] hybrid oil+ASHP systems which cost a lot more - hoping to get the lion's share of any government largesse, and also "insulating" themselves from complaint by gullible punters - as whichever component doesn't work well, issues can always be blamed on the alternative, or the alternative strategy - "you should have bought the hybrid model". [Yes - it's only £5+k more]

Maybe for care homes, hospitals etc. those would be a good idea, but it's a sledge hammer nut way to do things. Given that even oil heating fails if there is no electricity to pump, then only large installations will go the distance of having a generator to keep things going - back to critical locations - care homes, hospitals etc. Others can just burn wood - if they have a wood or duel fuel burner.

Re insulation in the UK - it's a disaster area. Some homes are built to moderatelly decent standards, though in comparison with Scandinavian homes they are not good. Then - because building homes with good insulation is more expensive, the **** [substitute any word you like here - bonkers, expletives etc.] government creates a different category of homes - called "Affordable" with poorer insulation standards, but they are not affordable anyway for people who are struggling with costs, and generally built to poorer standards.

I'll let you know about your last sentence - but it resonates.

>>The more recent batch of schemes, linked as they are to grant applications, requirement to meet pre-conditions, and accredited installers, seem to have become more and more divorced from reality. <<

Mad world!

My understanding of the ASHP rationale is that water heated to a relatively low temperature is circulated over long periods to a well insulated space, which as you say over a period of time reaches a suitable temperature for the occupants. That's one reason why it doesn't have to be warm outside in order to work. However if the heat that is fed into the house cannot be kept in then a suitable temperature won't be reached without some sort of boost - at which point I think the increased cost factor becomes apparent.
A couple I know have an ASHP in their custom built house, a recent replacement for an oil boiler, running underfloor heating, and I think they also have PV panels. As the house is well insulated(because built to their spec, not minimum UK standards) it is more than warm enough, as the heat doesn't get dissipated. I asked about hot water and they said that the heat pump also provides that but I don't think that is completely correct, and when I asked for more details they seemed rather vague. Doesn't really matter from their point of view I suppose if it all does what they need and at an acceptable running cost which seems to be the case. Losing the pervasive aroma of fuel oil has been a plus point as has the haggling to buy supplies, and the external pump unit is reckoned to be visually far preferable to the oil tank!
The admin hassles are off-putting not just for the potential customer, but seem now to be a real deterrent to firms as well. The costs are too high for smaller firms to take on and even for larger concerns there is the worry about whether the level of business will cover the investment, especially with some of the unrealistically short periods for which some of the grant applications were valid.
I've just found this https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...82623/default/ which, from the skim through I've done, seems a pretty damning report. A pity nothing will change as a result of it.

[Beresford]

SO Energy. They also have one of the most ridiculous tariff systems I have ever come across. There must be about 35 all named after a different fruit (eg banana; melon; pomegranate - you get the drift). There's barely a fag paper between them as far as I can tell - so what the point is is anyone's guess.

The names tell you when it has changed (like Apple's OS software). They only offer one at any one time - although they are still on hold, and use a default rate, last time I looked. They are very helpful by phone and email, but not very efficient. Much much better than British Gas (commercial) who were impossible to communicate with.
But they have not yet resolved our account issue, which derives - I think - from our landlord registering the supply of four cottages with only three MPAN's (Meter Point Access Numbers). SO probably cannot resolve it themselves, as the MPAN issue is between our Landlord and the regional infrastructure company - Electricity North West. It's a story almost as long as Dave's, and it has caused us a lot of frustration. Previous suppliers before SO fudged the issue, by pinching one of the three MPAN's - OK until someone moved house or changed supplier. But at least we are not paying anything at the moment - no MPAN implies no bills - but I am sure we will have to pay sometime.

[Dave2002]

I've just found this https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...82623/default/ which, from the skim through I've done, seems a pretty damning report. A pity nothing will change as a result of it.

I didn't know about that one. The situation in Scotland is similar, but not the same.

These "nudge" attempts do seem tricky, and in some cases not helpful at all. Oddly maybe the EV market may be more successful, though car use is not as big a proportion of carbon emission generating problems. I applied successfully for an earlier loan for a car - but gave up when asked [during the Covid period] to send all the documentation by email - signed copy of an agreement, copy of my passport, copies of my bank stagements etc. I refused on the grounds that if my email were intercepted, my bank accounts could be cleaned out within minutes. The administrators of that scheme just didn't appear to understand. We bought a couple of EVs anyway, one with the loan scheme, the other without.

The same situation arose with the ASHP application, but I refused to send anything other than by registered mail.

[Dave2002]

My understanding of the ASHP rationale is that water heated to a relatively low temperature is circulated over long periods to a well insulated space, which as you say over a period of time reaches a suitable temperature for the occupants. That's one reason why it doesn't have to be warm outside in order to work. However if the heat that is fed into the house cannot be kept in then a suitable temperature won't be reached without some sort of boost - at which point I think the increased cost factor becomes apparent.

There's perhaps even more to it than that. For under floor heating, the concrete and other material under the building may act as a heat store of sorts. Yes - heat will still leak out of the building if not well insulated, so it is quite important to have adequate insulation - or better. A slight variation is to use the under floor heating to keep a room in some ways "acceptably" warm - but perhaps a little on the cold side, and then use a fan heater or other electric heater to boost the heating for short periods. The under floor water pipes can be organised into separate zones, but then that requires more controls. It will work, but can be very difficult to control. Rooms which are not used can be shut down, but opening doors from a hotter room into a cold room will naturally cause a leakage of heat internally. Something like a village hall layout is probably going to be very difficult to manage, unless kept at a "normal" temperature most of the time. The point is that trying to get a rapid change in the heat with some under floor heating systems doesn't work, it may take 4-12 hours to get a build up of heat. These systems work much better if the temperatures are left high enough most of the time - which is wasteful if a building isn't being occupied continuously - as in the hall scenario mentioned.

[Frances_iom]

England has many examples of 1800 year old underfloor heating that obviously worked well - the Romans however used hot air under brick/stone often overlaid with a mosaic - like much of their engineering it worked - not trying to push tepid water through pipes in an effectively sealed box needing significant mechanical movement of air to prevent condensation

[oddoneout]

There's perhaps even more to it than that. For under floor heating, the concrete and other material under the building may act as a heat store of sorts. Yes - heat will still leak out of the building if not well insulated, so it is quite important to have adequate insulation - or better. A slight variation is to use the under floor heating to keep a room in some ways "acceptably" warm - but perhaps a little on the cold side, and then use a fan heater or other electric heater to boost the heating for short periods. The under floor water pipes can be organised into separate zones, but then that requires more controls. It will work, but can be very difficult to control. Rooms which are not used can be shut down, but opening doors from a hotter room into a cold room will naturally cause a leakage of heat internally. Something like a village hall layout is probably going to be very difficult to manage, unless kept at a "normal" temperature most of the time. The point is that trying to get a rapid change in the heat with some under floor heating systems doesn't work, it may take 4-12 hours to get a build up of heat. These systems work much better if the temperatures are left high enough most of the time - which is wasteful if a building isn't being occupied continuously - as in the hall scenario mentioned.

Horses for courses. underfloor heating is a nonsense for the village hall scenario as you point out, but it works well for (properly built/designed/insulated) homes with open plan layouts. It's striking how often amagazine article or TV programme will mention that although there may be a supplementary heat source as back-up, it is never needed. Many years ago there was for a few years an annual Green Building initiative here(I don't think it was a national scheme but might have been) along the lines of the Heritage Open Day scheme, where private and other buildings built/converted using eco methods for construction and running were open for the public to look at. Although I think I only saw one that had an ASHP, there were a good few examples of UFH where the same thing was mentioned - that with good design and build supplementary heating was rarely needed, certainly for the ground floor/living areas.Bedrooms often used different methods as UFH is not so straightforward there, and not necessarily a good idea depending on the construction of the upper level.
Radiators will be the norm for many houses that make the switch, but the issue of low temperature/high volume means that existing radiators and pipework won't necessarily be suitable. I gather that the Victorian style large radiators and pipework are good...

[Dave2002]

Horses for courses. underfloor heating is a nonsense for the village hall scenario as you point out, but it works well for (properly built/designed/insulated) homes with open plan layouts. It's striking how often amagazine article or TV programme will mention that although there may be a supplementary heat source as back-up, it is never needed. Many years ago there was for a few years an annual Green Building initiative here(I don't think it was a national scheme but might have been) along the lines of the Heritage Open Day scheme, where private and other buildings built/converted using eco methods for construction and running were open for the public to look at. Although I think I only saw one that had an ASHP, there were a good few examples of UFH where the same thing was mentioned - that with good design and build supplementary heating was rarely needed, certainly for the ground floor/living areas.Bedrooms often used different methods as UFH is not so straightforward there, and not necessarily a good idea depending on the construction of the upper level.
Radiators will be the norm for many houses that make the switch, but the issue of low temperature/high volume means that existing radiators and pipework won't necessarily be suitable. I gather that the Victorian style large radiators and pipework are good...

Most of this is correct, though open plan .... mmm it depends on how open, and whether it all needs to be heated all the time. Our house is not open plan, but basically it's quite large, with multiple [more than 10] UFH heating zones. If we want to warm the crows we'll keep the temperature up in all the rooms all the time, but that's quite an effective way to burn money. Things would probably be different if we had Scandinavian levels of insulation - including triple glazing, but we don't. Smaller houses with an upstairs floor can work with open plan and only a few zones. A former neighbour to our previous abode designed and installed a system like that, and I believe it is/was very effective, though many of the houses in that road had the problem that they were far too hot in the summer, due to the chalet style upper storeys. The winters were quite cool, and we actually had an Aga [inherited with the house] which was expensive, but brilliant at keeping an acceptable level of heat in very cold weather, as well as being useful for drying out clothes. It did require a different way of cooking though - but once mastered it was good. The central heating was not always reliable, and the gas boiler which we resited into the garage would cut off in very cold weather due to condensing water in the outlet pipe freezing.

Some houses are built to a standard design, but not all are. There can be wide variations in what works, depending on the layout of the building and other factors, including patterns of usage.

[cria]

E.ON. Next have advised price reductions from 1 July, reduced our DD from 15 July, reduced our projected usage - yr on yr saving around £500. Notified by email & confirmed on the brilliant unambiguous E.ON App.

[Serial_Apologist]

E.ON. Next have advised price reductions from 1 July, reduced our DD from 15 July, reduced our projected usage - yr on yr saving around £500. Notified by email & confirmed on the brilliant unambiguous E.ON App.

Same with EDF.

[antongould]

…… and so Engineer 3 arrived as promised and said that he was from EDF’s “crack” contractors who they used on repeat visits …. for which we, obviously, qualify. To be fair compared with the previous 2 he seemed to very much know what he was doing ….. he took one look at the communications unit and said “ … from those two lights it needs changing …. “. He did this in a very few minutes and a few minutes later electricity readings arrived on the display unit …. but no gas. He looked at his iPad and the gas meter and said “ .. this gas meter has somehow been de-commissioned ….. I will get it sorted … “ But sadly he couldn’t - after pressing buttons and staring at his iPad for 45 minutes he admitted defeat and said he couldn’t wait any longer. He said that the office will check remotely to see if everything has finished and when it has someone will come out and get us 100% smart as opposed to 50% smart in 5 minutes.
I sense the band playing “Believe It If You Like”

The Fourth Engineer Cometh
As I type this as he is here ...... he pronounced reasonably quickly that the gas meter had been decommissioned .... I said "Yes that's what the last engineer said" - he said I can commission it from here .... and started keying frantically into his tablet .... "I said the last lad tried for 45 minutes but couldn't manage it" ..... No I'm sure it will work - Well guess what it didn't so after half an hour he says The Communications hub wasn't installed correctly and all we can do to possibly fix it is change the Communications Hub (again!) and change and recommission the gas meter - but that's a big job and should work ... - do you want me to do it? So I just said "no leave it and I will take regular reads myself!!!"
So now I am half smart and Wii, it seems be so forever ......

[oddoneout]

The Fourth Engineer Cometh
As I type this as he is here ...... he pronounced reasonably quickly that the gas meter had been decommissioned .... I said "Yes that's what the last engineer said" - he said I can commission it from here .... and started keying frantically into his tablet .... "I said the last lad tried for 45 minutes but couldn't manage it" ..... No I'm sure it will work - Well guess what it didn't so after half an hour he says The Communications hub wasn't installed correctly and all we can do to possibly fix it is change the Communications Hub (again!) and change and recommission the gas meter - but that's a big job and should work ... - do you want me to do it? So I just said "no leave it and I will take regular reads myself!!!"
So now I am half smart and Wii, it seems be so forever ......

Groundhog Day? What puzzles me about this sort of thing is that on the one hand companies whinge on about how much it costs to provide a service(especially when it involves "expensive" humans) and hike their prices accordingly, and yet seemingly simple cost saving measures, such as effective record-keeping and communication are ignored. It isn't much fun for the engineers( I would have thought they are technicians these days?) sent out repeatedly either; they get the customer's ire direct and to rub salt into the wound don't seem to get any functional support.