Meter readings

[oddoneout]

With the app, all the information you need is available: meter readings history, bills and payments history, current balance (£132 and I'm okay with that), account info settings/security setting, password management, make a payment &c. S'easy.

I've been trying to work out (not sure yet) whether renewables - solar, wind and hydro - are 'free' in a way that coal and gas aren't. They all need technology of various sorts to generate the energy

Having the information available, and people actually bothering to read it, are two separate things all too often.
All the generation methods need kit, but the fuel to drive the kit to make the energy is free in the case of the genuine renewables is the way I see it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

With the app, all the information you need is available: meter readings history, bills and payments history, current balance (£132 and I'm okay with that), account info settings/security setting, password management, make a payment &c. S'easy.

I've been trying to work out (not sure yet) whether renewables - solar, wind and hydro - are 'free' in a way that coal and gas aren't. They all need technology of various sorts to generate the energy

There is no free energy except that which is radiated by the sun . Thankfully there’s an awful lot of that and we only use and have used a tiny , tiny proportion of it. All renewable energy sources come at some environmental cost - the energy costs of production ( , the use of rare earths in solar panels and batteries , the impact of wind turbines on migrating birds and the impact of hydropower on upstream and downstream riverine life. None of these energy systems are carbon free and they will take differing lengths of time to earn back the sunk carbon in their production. But in carbon terms they are a whole lot better than coal and gas burning.
It always surprises me when people criticise the nuclear industry for safety issues .Far far more people have died as a consequence of coal mining and oil extraction through industrial diseases and airborne pollution . The death toll must run into many millions.

[gurnemanz]

There is no free energy except that which is radiated by the sun .

This is the time of year (same in spring) when the sun usefully heats the house with a kind of greenhouse effect which makes just enough difference to be able to avoid turning the heating on. We have not had to do so yet and still have a comfortable temperature throughout the house even in non-south-facing rooms.

[Dave2002]

With the app, all the information you need is available: meter readings history, bills and payments history, current balance (£132 and I'm okay with that), account info settings/security setting, password management, make a payment &c. S'easy.

I've been trying to work out (not sure yet) whether renewables - solar, wind and hydro - are 'free' in a way that coal and gas aren't. They all need technology of various sorts to generate the energy

Many people really can't be bothered to analyse their use of electricity - whether the information is available or not. We have noted that when the sun shines in the middle of the day there is no impact on our bills, whether we use the washing machines and/or dryer or not. Of course when the sun shines and the wind blows we can dry clothes on the lines outside - which we do - but often the weather changes quite quickly. For us there is now a very big difference between the cheap period tariff and the regular tariff - around 40p per kwH difference, so we so try to avoid using electricity during peak periods, and we're also trying new gadgets - such as an air fryer instead of using the electric oven.

Re renewables - yes there are major infrastructure requirements, either on a micro scale or nationally. These are not "carbon neutral", but in terms of offsetting other energy usage they are a step in the right direction.
It is also possible, when making comparisons, that the infrastructure and other requirements are not significantly different for some "renewable" approaches than ones which directly use fuels such as oil, gas, coal or wood. For example an electric car (EV) still has to have a body, wheels etc. and it might be argued that overall those parts are still comparable with a regular petrol or diesel engined car. For heating, traditional methods use boilers and possibly storage tanks, whereas heat pumps have different part requirements - but possibly not significantly different in terms of energy production.

Evaluating "renewable" systems does require doing appropriate comparisons, though generally the better ones are less damaging than the energy intensive and wasteful methods in which fossil fuels are simply burnt. Typically return on the initial investment should be within 2-10 years, with a system lifetime of 15-20 years, or maybe much longer for some large scale developments. Sometimes - sadly - the "renewable" alternative to fossil fuel burning actually is worse, but hopefully this is not generally the case.

[Dave2002]

There is no free energy except that which is radiated by the sun .

Wave and tidal energy come from the gravitational influence of the moon on the earth. Wind energy comes indirectly from the sun due to the differential heating of different parts of the atmosphere, and the effects of evaporation and condensation etc. There is also geothermal energy, which I believe is also largely due to gravity as the outer layers of the earth compress the parts beneath, thus heating those up. There might even be natural nuclear/radiation energy in some parts of the world - or at least within the earth's interior. I don't think all the free energy comes directly from solar radiation, but admittedly a large proportion does.

[oddoneout]

Many people really can't be bothered to analyse their use of electricity - whether the information is available or not. We have noted that when the sun shines in the middle of the day there is no impact on our bills, whether we use the washing machines and/or dryer or not. Of course when the sun shines and the wind blows we can dry clothes on the lines outside - which we do - but often the weather changes quite quickly. For us there is now a very big difference between the cheap period tariff and the regular tariff - around 40p per kwH difference, so we so try to avoid using electricity during peak periods, and we're also trying new gadgets - such as an air fryer instead of using the electric oven.

Re renewables - yes there are major infrastructure requirements, either on a micro scale or nationally. These are not "carbon neutral", but in terms of offsetting other energy usage they are a step in the right direction.
It is also possible, when making comparisons, that the infrastructure and other requirements are not significantly different for some "renewable" approaches than ones which directly use fuels such as oil, gas, coal or wood. For example an electric car (EV) still has to have a body, wheels etc. and it might be argued that overall those parts are still comparable with a regular petrol or diesel engined car. For heating, traditional methods use boilers and possibly storage tanks, whereas heat pumps have different part requirements - but possibly not significantly different in terms of energy production.

Evaluating "renewable" systems does require doing appropriate comparisons, though generally the better ones are less damaging than the energy intensive and wasteful methods in which fossil fuels are simply burnt. Typically return on the initial investment should be within 2-10 years, with a system lifetime of 15-20 years, or maybe much longer for some large scale developments. Sometimes - sadly - the "renewable" alternative to fossil fuel burning actually is worse, but hopefully this is not generally the case.

The Panorama programme (Monday 8pm BBC1) on the source of the wood pellets now used to power Drax will have come as a shock to quite a few people I think - not least the idea that in terms of CO2 emissions it is worse than when coal fired. Although coal burning emissions are not limited to CO2, by the time all the other factors are taken into account(destruction of primary forest, transporting 11,000miles etc) for the wood pellets, one has to ask if there is any net gain at all - other than being able to label it as "renewable" because it uses trees - a claim which doesn't stand up to scrutiny on several counts.
A colleague fulminates about this issue as we have a wood pellet boiler at work to supplement the 2 oil boilers. It was installed some years ago to assess feasibility for wider application across the council's estate, under the aegis of various "green" initiatives and funding. There is a facility in the county which produces material of the right quality to run the boiler, but council purchasing processes rule out its use... Doubly daft since the stuff we are allowed to buy in is not always of adequate quality (which has been repeatedly pointed out) and causes operational problems.

[Dave2002]

The Panorama programme (Monday 8pm BBC1) on the source of the wood pellets now used to power Drax will have come as a shock to quite a few people I think - not least the idea that in terms of CO2 emissions it is worse than when coal fired.

Probably not many - don't underestimate the number of people who don't watch that kind of TV.

I will look out for that Panorama.

Patterns of use also come into play. Not too far away there is a hall which can be hired out by groups for meetings. Some years ago it was converted I believe to heat pump operation. I don't know all the details, but it probably has underfloor heating. This was as part of a community programme for locals as there are wind farms nearby.

Apparently it's now not fully fit for purpose as it is not occupied 24/7 and people expect the rooms they use to be warm when they arrive. This can only happen if the system operates at a low level for quite a lengthy period beforehand but the usage patterns just don't match. Also, if the weather changes rapidly it probably doesn't respond to the changes fast enough. It might be a lot better if it could be used for most/more hours each day, but as it is I hear that it costs more to run than the previous oil boiler - though that may have been before the hikes in both oil and electricity prices - and is in some ways less satisfactory. I have already stated that I don't have all the details, but there seems to be a general consensus (backed up by user experience and accounts) that this attempt at an "eco-solution" hasn't really worked out too well. It's not I think a total disaster, but hardly a great example either. There are quite a number of "eco experiments" in Scotland and some of them have an expected payback time - if at all - of around 100 years.

Personally I am in favour of trying to get better solutions, and a few pilot projects which fail are going to be worth it in the long run if eventually systems which reliably deliver significantly better performance will be found, otherwise there is little point in trying to change.

[Serial_Apologist]

The Panorama programme (Monday 8pm BBC1) on the source of the wood pellets now used to power Drax will have come as a shock to quite a few people I think - not least the idea that in terms of CO2 emissions it is worse than when coal fired. Although coal burning emissions are not limited to CO2, by the time all the other factors are taken into account(destruction of primary forest, transporting 11,000miles etc) for the wood pellets, one has to ask if there is any net gain at all - other than being able to label it as "renewable" because it uses trees - a claim which doesn't stand up to scrutiny on several counts.
A colleague fulminates about this issue as we have a wood pellet boiler at work to supplement the 2 oil boilers. It was installed some years ago to assess feasibility for wider application across the council's estate, under the aegis of various "green" initiatives and funding. There is a facility in the county which produces material of the right quality to run the boiler, but council purchasing processes rule out its use... Doubly daft since the stuff we are allowed to buy in is not always of adequate quality (which has been repeatedly pointed out) and causes operational problems.

Indeed, I was shocked. One of the contentions put out by the pellets burning optionists is that forests are planted to soak up the carbon burned by the pellets. The problem is that it takes decades for the trees to reach sufficient maturity to fulfil their carbon capture function. And the CEO at Drax demonstrated monumental evasiveness in his answers to these and other questions by obtusely merely repeating as if deaf to the points being made that their business model ensured only sustainable forests sourced for the pellets were used, which the programme demonstrated clearly was not the case. A most depressing programme.

[oddoneout]

Indeed, I was shocked. One of the contentions put out by the pellets burning optionists is that forests are planted to soak up the carbon burned by the pellets. The problem is that it takes decades for the trees to reach sufficient maturity to fulfil their carbon capture function. And the CEO at Drax demonstrated monumental evasiveness in his answers to these and other questions by obtusely merely repeating as if deaf to the points being made that their business model ensured only sustainable forests sourced for the pellets were used, which the programme demonstrated clearly was not the case. A most depressing programme.

The annoying thing is that finding a use for the waste part of the timber industry(bark, small/faulty pieces etc) is a good thing, which then gets dragged down by the kind of malpractice shown in the programme. On some programmes of this type the relevant person(the one maintaining that everything is done as it should be) is shown the evidence and then asked to comment. It wasn't done in this case (or if it was it wasn't shown) but one assumes the footage has been shown to the company, so I wonder if any response will be forthcoming.

A most depressing programme

Reading this won't help on that front I'm afraid https://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/axedrax-campaign/ It's interesting about the wood dust court case, as the problem of wood dust is apparent at work where the delivery and moving into storage of the pellets generates large quantities of dust, and the dust itself sometimes jams up the works (sticks to the side of the chute feeding pellets into the boiler) and has to be manually removed. Being exposed to that on a regular basis as the workers at the factory are likely doing can't be desirable - old story of PPE (lack of) I wonder.
The figures for the government subsidies are mind-boggling; how much lower would energy bills be without that load( I assume it's part of the green levy), and how many homes could have had basic insulation and energy saving measures installed(thus reducing demand) for that sort of money? And yes I'm aware that the generating capacity of the Drax plant couldn't just be withdrawn if coal wasn't being burnt but even so...

[oddoneout]

On a rather more positive note. A neighbour across the road has had PV panels installed front and back on his house (in addition to replacing the double glazing) and within a day was seeing the benefits. It is linked to battery storage and so the good weather after it went live gave quick results. He reckons most of their demand over the weekend was met by their own generation. The roof isn't in the "ideal" orientation being west and east but this morning it's easy to see why that may not be such a problem as the panels at the front have been in full sun since before 8 am and the forecast is for plenty more sun/bright conditions today.
My son already has such an arrangement and it has been giving good results but his roof is aligned differently so I didn't know how valid it would be for my house, but the neighbour's comments suggest it would be worth looking into as part of my plans to make living in this house practical for as long as possible.

[Dave2002]

The figures for the government subsidies are mind-boggling; how much lower would energy bills be without that load( I assume it's part of the green levy), and how many homes could have had basic insulation and energy saving measures installed(thus reducing demand) for that sort of money? And yes I'm aware that the generating capacity of the Drax plant couldn't just be withdrawn if coal wasn't being burnt but even so...

A few years ago I was investigating insulation, and was (and still am) prepared to pay for more insulation in our house. There are a few issues re installing insulation. Firstly there are - or have been - government grants and loans. However these are nearly always linked to having work done by some form of professional worker. There is nothing wrong with that per se, except that many people might think that they could install insulation themselves, with the material costs maybe being rather less than the total cost if an outside contractor is used. So then they either do the work themselves, or decide not to bother. Secondly, around a year ago we went out for dinner with some friends who live in Cumbria. Before that I had seriously been considering buying wool insulation, but it appears that while wool seems to be a very effective heat insulator, over time - perhaps not too long - it attracts flies which degrade it substantially, creating a significant problem. Hence what seemed like a new business model for sheep farmers with wool to sell has resulted in sheds full of wool being left to rot. Now I'm looking once again for a form of insulation which is effective, affordable, and easy to fit - either by myself or by workmen who know what they're doing.

[french frank]

Environmental groups have been highlighting the problem with Drax for quite a while - long enough for signs that someone has been listening and is at least starting to take action.

The problem is that it takes decades for the trees to reach sufficient maturity to fulfil their carbon capture function.

I've heard this argument, but a 'properly managed' system does work. Birch trees take approximately 30 years before they are harvestable, so you start the yearly plantings 30 years before anything is cut down. Then when you cut down the first year's planting, you plant a new one to replace it so that the forest always has the same number of trees. It's the only way the carbon neutral claim can work.

Back to meter readings: I've just had my monthly statement for 7th Sept - 5 Oct. The email breaks down the costs for electricity and gas into 7 Sept-30 Sept and 1 Oct-4 Oct, my direct debit is quoted (which clearly indicates that the government discount has been applied), and my previous and current balances are quoted.That's just the summary - a pdf (when I get round to looking at it) will have the appropriate meter readings too.

Am I paying a bit more for the exemplary service? Probably, but I understand what I'm paying for and I don't have any hassle with my supplier because everything is explained - so far to my satisfaction, but if it wasn't ..

[oddoneout]

A few years ago I was investigating insulation, and was (and still am) prepared to pay for more insulation in our house. There are a few issues re installing insulation. Firstly there are - or have been - government grants and loans. However these are nearly always linked to having work done by some form of professional worker. There is nothing wrong with that per se, except that many people might think that they could install insulation themselves, with the material costs maybe being rather less than the total cost if an outside contractor is used. So then they either do the work themselves, or decide not to bother. Secondly, around a year ago we went out for dinner with some friends who live in Cumbria. Before that I had seriously been considering buying wool insulation, but it appears that while wool seems to be a very effective heat insulator, over time - perhaps not too long - it attracts flies which degrade it substantially, creating a significant problem. Hence what seemed like a new business model for sheep farmers with wool to sell has resulted in sheds full of wool being left to rot. Now I'm looking once again for a form of insulation which is effective, affordable, and easy to fit - either by myself or by workmen who know what they're doing.

Yes my comment was of the "in an ideal world" type. I am all too aware of the issues around the increasingly useless government schemes, grant or otherwise. I still remember many years ago a documentary which included footage of people living in houses which had been subject to supposed government initiative heating improvements where storage heaters had been put in - but not wired up as that was a different bit of the work which was never put in place. Both I and a family member have had to abandon plans to carry out improvements through such schemes, and we have both spoken to traders who have said they aren't interested in signing up as registered contractors for such schemes as they are too expensive and cumbersome to administer and operate. The last scheme was of such short duration that by the time all the approvals would have gone through it would have quite likely been closed.
However there are some council run schemes which, on a wider scale, would be the way forward for those most needing the work, so long as the councils can be assured of funding. Historically such work has also been organised and administered by local councils; my current home and a previous one had funding for such things as double glazing and loft insulation through grants given by the local council late 70s and early 80s - not loans linked to hypothetical energy savings funding repayments attached to the property, as recent schemes have been.

[oddoneout]

Environmental groups have been highlighting the problem with Drax for quite a while - long enough for signs that someone has been listening and is at least starting to take action.



I've heard this argument, but a 'properly managed' system does work. Birch trees take approximately 30 years before they are harvestable, so you start the yearly plantings 30 years before anything is cut down. Then when you cut down the first year's planting, you plant a new one to replace it so that the forest always has the same number of trees. It's the only way the carbon neutral claim can work.

Back to meter readings: I've just had my monthly statement for 7th Sept - 5 Oct. The email breaks down the costs for electricity and gas into 7 Sept-30 Sept and 1 Oct-4 Oct, my direct debit is quoted (which clearly indicates that the government discount has been applied), and my previous and current balances are quoted.That's just the summary - a pdf (when I get round to looking at it) will have the appropriate meter readings too.

Am I paying a bit more for the exemplary service? Probably, but I understand what I'm paying for and I don't have any hassle with my supplier because everything is explained - so far to my satisfaction, but if it wasn't ..

A difficulty with the managed forest argument is where the extraction starts before the replacement is underway, ie there isn't 30 years worth available already or where the extraction rates increase from original projections. Another is to do with like for like - taking out one type of wood but replacing with a different, faster growing, one which, quite apart from all the eco/wildlife aspects, may not provide the equivalent energy either.
I've finally had a letter from my supplier setting out new prices, projected costs etc. so I've been able to work out how much more I'll be paying(more than double the same period last year - assuming consumption remains similar). I'm not sure what form the discount will take nor when I'll receive it, as I pay by DD but quarterly, so I might not see anything until February 2023 as the current charging period runs from end of September to end of January. I regularly check bank statements so it may become apparent before too long what route has been taken, but fortunately a delayed payment won't cause me financial hardship.

[antongould]

………Back to meter readings: I've just had my monthly statement for 7th Sept - 5 Oct. The email breaks down the costs for electricity and gas into 7 Sept-30 Sept and 1 Oct-4 Oct, my direct debit is quoted (which clearly indicates that the government discount has been applied), and my previous and current balances are quoted.That's just the summary - a pdf (when I get round to looking at it) will have the appropriate meter readings too.

Am I paying a bit more for the exemplary service? Probably, but I understand what I'm paying for and I don't have any hassle with my supplier because everything is explained - so far to my satisfaction, but if it wasn't ..

No change requested in monthly direct debit amount ff or do you pay the full monthly bill by DD ….. ???? Apologies if you have already disclosed this …….