Meter readings

[P. G. Tipps]

Surely you must have heard of Jeff even if you were uncertain about Hartlepool ... ?

Stelling, of course!

[Dave2002]

Whether a good idea or not - too early to tell - the Gas Man cameth today, and I did have the gas and electricity meter removed and replaced with new smart ones. The smart display gadget is quite neat too.

I still have to check some features, and whether the new meters really are working as they should. I have my suspicions that they may not be quite right, but it's still too early to tell. Most people should find they are OK I guess.

Of course the old motto about weighing pigs not making them any fatter still applies, and it doesn't follow that our consumption will go down, or that charges will reduce.
I did make sure I had the old meter readings before the old meters were taken away. A few years ago when I had meters changed I was never fully convinced that the calculations by the supply company were correct, since some previous bills were based on estimates, and the arcane art of meter reading can lead to uncertain results. In the end disputes may simply result in a "their word against yours" situation. I'm not saying they were wrong, but just that there was a considerable lack of transparency. Maybe the new style meters will be simpler for home owners to cross check against the supply companies' records and bills.

[Serial_Apologist]

Whether a good idea or not - too early to tell - the Gas Man cameth today, and I did have the gas and electricity meter removed and replaced with new smart ones. The smart display gadget is quite neat too.

I still have to check some features, and whether the new meters really are working as they should. I have my suspicions that they may not be quite right, but it's still too early to tell. Most people should find they are OK I guess.

Of course the old motto about weighing pigs not making them any fatter still applies, and it doesn't follow that our consumption will go down, or that charges will reduce.
I did make sure I had the old meter readings before the old meters were taken away. A few years ago when I had meters changed I was never fully convinced that the calculations by the supply company were correct, since some previous bills were based on estimates, and the arcane art of meter reading can lead to uncertain results. In the end disputes may simply result in a "their word against yours" situation. I'm not saying they were wrong, but just that there was a considerable lack of transparency. Maybe the new style meters will be simpler for home owners to cross check against the supply companies' records and bills.

Good luck with it, Dave!

[antongould]

People, for some reason, tend to think of electricity and gas billing as some form of regression analysis or whatever - it's really quite simple, electricity especially. If the readings you have taken on the removed meters are in advance of the last readings you were billed to the supply company should just bill you the difference between the readings at your tariff rates.....if the readings or any of them are less than you were last billed to they should go back to the last billed reading less than the meter removal readings and credit you with all the charges back those readings and date. They should then recharge up to the removal readings.
Straightforward stuff?

[teamsaint]

People for some reason tend to think of electricity and gas billing as some form of regression analysis or whatever - it's really quite simple, electricity especially. If the readings you have taken on the removed meters are in advance of the last readings you were billed to the supply company should just bill you the difference between the readings at your tariff rates.....if the readings or any of them is less than you were last billed to they should go back to the last billed reading less than the meter removal readings and credit you with all the charges back those readings and date. They should then recharge up to the removal readings.
Straightforward stuff?

a bit like tax codes, and basic income tax. Most of it is pretty straightforward, ( and in fact the PAYE , or schedule E as pedants know it, is an elegant system run very badly).
I do think that , although the purpose of education shouldn't be to teach people how to understand tax codes, that a bit of timely training would in some cases help to avoid a lifetime of confusion..of the " I'm retired and I never knew I would have to pay tax" kind.

so there.
That's what I think.

[antongould]

And it's what I think too ....

[Dave2002]

People, for some reason, tend to think of electricity and gas billing as some form of regression analysis or whatever - it's really quite simple, electricity especially. If the readings you have taken on the removed meters are in advance of the last readings you were billed to the supply company should just bill you the difference between the readings at your tariff rates.....if the readings or any of them are less than you were last billed to they should go back to the last billed reading less than the meter removal readings and credit you with all the charges back those readings and date. They should then recharge up to the removal readings.
Straightforward stuff?

It's straightforward (I think) if there are no changes in pricing during a period with estimated readings, or if there are no volume related pricing policies. However, if there are such factors, then the billing company could use some flexibility to optimise its profits. This would be unfair. It is also not fair to use assumptions of uniform use over long periods, to allow linear interpolation, as patterns of use will probably not follow auch patterns. Thus it really is more complex than you are suggesting.

[P. G. Tipps]

These big companies will try anything to simply confuse customers so that they (the customers) will simply give up trying to figure it out and then the companies will suggest the tariff that suits them and not the customer. They all do it as they are all in business to make as large a profit as possible.

I defy anyone (apart from, say, Anton who has experience in the industry) to have a semblance of a clue as to what my npower bill is all about. It is pure trade gobbledygook, utterly meaningless to the non-trade consumer. I agree with those who say an electricity or gas bill should be relatively easy to understand ... a bit like a phone bill. for example.

If a hugely intelligent, 'switched-on' guy like me can't comprehend the damned things what hope is there for the rest of humanity .. ?

[Serial_Apologist]

relatively easy to understand ... a bit like a phone bill. for example.

[Dave2002]

Perhaps I should now confess that there is a technical reason why I'm concerned. We are part of the moderately wealthy middle class (though it doesn't always feel like that) who have installed PV solar panels. My original intention was environmental, rather than to make money, and indeed so far we have paid out more than we have got back, with relatively high installation costs about 3 years ago. It will probably take another 8-10 years to recover the costs with the Feed In payments.

Since getting involved with micro-generation, I can see some problems, though perhaps in the long term there will be benefits for the country as a whole. In the long term the installation costs for micro-generation systems may be small enough that there is a net benefit in terms of energy supply. In our case, it seems likely that the balance of costs both financially, and in terms of energy produced, may be close to zero, or even be negative, and that it would have been better for the country as a whole to invest in more efficient macro generation systems. Possibly over the lifetime of the panels and the FiT payments there will be a monetary advantage to us, but in the short to medium term (up to about 12 years) there is a net loss. I understand some of the arguments about kick starting new initiatives to bring costs down (which has to some extent happened, though some suppliers have charged high prices - but they have now been squeezed), and also that there will be improvements in efficiency so that micro generation such as by PV panels will in the future be beneficial both to micro generation system owners, and also to the country and the environment, but at the time we installed our system a tipping point in favour of positive benefits had not quite been reached.

It seems clear to me that nuclear power generation is, at least in the medium term (100s of years maybe), more effective - though there are still many who don't want to consider nuclear power systems for electricity generation, in which case the so-called "green energy" systems - tidal, wave, hydro-electric, wind and PV may be the only acceptable solutions to avoid increasing CO2 emissions further.

Having now fessed up, I can say that the Smart Meter supplied by British Gas does have problems. Either the display is incorrect, or the metering system is incorrect, or possibly both. I have now contacted British Gas and been told that the display will be affected by the additional energy input from the PV array, and will be incorrect and should be ignored! I have been assured that the actual meter readings are correct - though at present I have no way of knowing that that is the case. Perhaps eventually a pattern will emerge which may give me more confidence that the system is at least going to deliver the correct bills, or alternatively more certainty that it doesn't, so that I can then challenge the assertion, but at the present time we have been provided with a "Smart" display which I've been told will give misleading information. I have suggested that they produce one which sorts this problem out, and supply us with one when they have done so.

[antongould]

It's straightforward (I think) if there are no changes in pricing during a period with estimated readings, or if there are no volume related pricing policies. However, if there are such factors, then the billing company could use some flexibility to optimise its profits. This would be unfair. It is also not fair to use assumptions of uniform use over long periods, to allow linear interpolation, as patterns of use will probably not follow auch patterns. Thus it really is more complex than you are suggesting.

If prices have changed since the last billed reading the suppliers with no actual readings on the date of change will estimate in a manner that usually involves a combination of your past consumption history and average seasonal factors e.g. the fabled average customer uses 14% of their annual gas consumption in January as against less than 3% in July. I have never known any supplier attempt to make their estimating algorithm other than fair although some are better than others. Obviously the best thing to do is to take your own readings on the price change date and either send them to the supplier or wait until the estimates come in and make a financial decision whether to ask for an amended bill or not.
There should be no volume related domestic tariffs now only a flat kWh charge and a daily fixed charge.
Scotty I agree the npower bill is a joke and it will, I am sure, not surprise to learn it was design by a vast array of persons/parties including Marketing ( but not Billing of course ), consultants and senior management with "help" from ofgem and consumer bodies - a bunch who wouldn't recognise an energy bill if they met one in the street. It will please you to hear my views were completely ignored .......
Dave the industry has had lots of problems with the interplay between metering and domestic solar generation and as always have not gone about sorting it in what the man on the Clapham omnibus would term a logical fashion. Certain older meters went backwards for instance and as the industry, as I may have mentioned, has no proper meter records anymore problems are legion!! I would have hoped that a new fit smart meter would be fine but I would advise you to take regular actual readings to see if they are as you expect......

[Dave2002]

There should be no volume related domestic tariffs now only a flat kWh charge and a daily fixed charge.

Have all the tiered tariffs now been abolished? I'm sure there used to be some.

Tbanks for the comment re keeping track of the readings - though I'm not actually sure that would help if there are (design/algorithmic) flaws in the meters themselves.

I'm just hoping that having been persuaded to have the smart meters that this won't turn out to present more problems than it solves.

[antongould]

They had been when I left - they may have crept back in and yes there used to be loads of them

[Nick Armstrong]

Slightly off-thread perhaps, but it refers to the faceless machinations of 'utilities' and similar.

This is doing the rounds on social media, a letter sent to her bank (so it is said) by an 86 year old woman.


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Dear Sir

I am writing to thank you for bouncing my check with which I endeavored to pay my plumber last month.

By my calculations, three nanoseconds must have elapsed between his presenting the check and the arrival in my account of the funds needed to honor it.

I refer, of course, to the automatic monthly deposit of my entire pension, an arrangement which, I admit, has been in place for only eight years.

You are to be commended for seizing that brief window of opportunity, and also for debiting my account $30 by way of penalty for the inconvenience caused to your bank.

My thankfulness springs from the manner in which this incident has caused me to rethink my errant financial ways. I noticed that whereas I personally answer your telephone calls and letters, — when I try to contact you, I am confronted by the impersonal, overcharging, pre-recorded, faceless entity which your bank has become.

From now on, I, like you, choose only to deal with a flesh-and-blood person.

My mortgage and loan repayments will therefore and hereafter no longer be automatic, but will arrive at your bank, by check, addressed personally and confidentially to an employee at your bank whom you must nominate.

Be aware that it is an OFFENSE under the Postal Act for any other person to open such an envelope.

Please find attached an Application Form which I require your chosen employee to complete.

I am sorry it runs to eight pages, but in order that I know as much about him or her as your bank knows about me, there is no alternative.

Please note that all copies of his or her medical history must be countersigned by a Notary Public, and the mandatory details of his/her financial situation (income, debts, assets and liabilities) must be accompanied by documented proof.

In due course, at MY convenience, I will issue your employee with a PIN number which he/she must quote in dealings with me.

I regret that it cannot be shorter than 28 digits but, again, I have modeled it on the number of button presses required of me to access my account balance on your phone bank service.

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Let me level the playing field even further. When you call me, press buttons as follows:

IMMEDIATELY AFTER DIALING, PRESS THE STAR (*) BUTTON FOR ENGLISH

#1. To make an appointment to see me

#2. To query a missing payment.

#3. To transfer the call to my living room in case I am there.

#4 To transfer the call to my bedroom in case I am sleeping.

#5. To transfer the call to my toilet in case I am attending to nature.

#6. To transfer the call to my mobile phone if I am not at home.

#7. To leave a message on my computer, a password to access my computer is required.

Password will be communicated to you at a later date to that Authorized Contact mentioned earlier.

#8. To return to the main menu and to listen to options 1 through

#9. To make a general complaint or inquiry.

The contact will then be put on hold, pending the attention of my automated answering service.

#10. This is a second reminder to press* for English.

While this may, on occasion, involve a lengthy wait, uplifting music will play for the duration of the call.

Regrettably, but again following your example, I must also levy an establishment fee to cover the setting up of this new arrangement.

May I wish you a happy, if ever so slightly less prosperous New Year? Your Humble Client And remember: Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to p**s us off.

Sincerely

[Serial_Apologist]

Slightly off-thread perhaps, but it refers to the faceless machinations of 'utilities' and similar.

This is doing the rounds on social media, a letter sent to her bank (so it is said) by an 86 year old woman.


---------------------------------------------------



Dear Sir

I am writing to thank you for bouncing my check with which I endeavored to pay my plumber last month.

By my calculations, three nanoseconds must have elapsed between his presenting the check and the arrival in my account of the funds needed to honor it.

I refer, of course, to the automatic monthly deposit of my entire pension, an arrangement which, I admit, has been in place for only eight years.

You are to be commended for seizing that brief window of opportunity, and also for debiting my account $30 by way of penalty for the inconvenience caused to your bank.

My thankfulness springs from the manner in which this incident has caused me to rethink my errant financial ways. I noticed that whereas I personally answer your telephone calls and letters, — when I try to contact you, I am confronted by the impersonal, overcharging, pre-recorded, faceless entity which your bank has become.

From now on, I, like you, choose only to deal with a flesh-and-blood person.

My mortgage and loan repayments will therefore and hereafter no longer be automatic, but will arrive at your bank, by check, addressed personally and confidentially to an employee at your bank whom you must nominate.

Be aware that it is an OFFENSE under the Postal Act for any other person to open such an envelope.

Please find attached an Application Form which I require your chosen employee to complete.

I am sorry it runs to eight pages, but in order that I know as much about him or her as your bank knows about me, there is no alternative.

Please note that all copies of his or her medical history must be countersigned by a Notary Public, and the mandatory details of his/her financial situation (income, debts, assets and liabilities) must be accompanied by documented proof.

In due course, at MY convenience, I will issue your employee with a PIN number which he/she must quote in dealings with me.

I regret that it cannot be shorter than 28 digits but, again, I have modeled it on the number of button presses required of me to access my account balance on your phone bank service.

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Let me level the playing field even further. When you call me, press buttons as follows:

IMMEDIATELY AFTER DIALING, PRESS THE STAR (*) BUTTON FOR ENGLISH

#1. To make an appointment to see me

#2. To query a missing payment.

#3. To transfer the call to my living room in case I am there.

#4 To transfer the call to my bedroom in case I am sleeping.

#5. To transfer the call to my toilet in case I am attending to nature.

#6. To transfer the call to my mobile phone if I am not at home.

#7. To leave a message on my computer, a password to access my computer is required.

Password will be communicated to you at a later date to that Authorized Contact mentioned earlier.

#8. To return to the main menu and to listen to options 1 through

#9. To make a general complaint or inquiry.

The contact will then be put on hold, pending the attention of my automated answering service.

#10. This is a second reminder to press* for English.

While this may, on occasion, involve a lengthy wait, uplifting music will play for the duration of the call.

Regrettably, but again following your example, I must also levy an establishment fee to cover the setting up of this new arrangement.

May I wish you a happy, if ever so slightly less prosperous New Year? Your Humble Client And remember: Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to p**s us off.

Sincerely

A brilliant riposte!!!

No marbles wanting there!