Sam Jackson's reply

[LMcD]

I am afraid I am not especially grateful, since such complete items are buried to a greater or lesser extent by incomplete other works and dismembered concert recordings to which they don't bear any relationship, except on rare occasions. Listening to the "big label" works means guesswork about when they'll be on, since the initial schedule doesn't include all the works that will be included in the afternoon slot, so timings are approximate. Fine if you listen on catch-up, not so fine in real time wanting to listen to the main item but not the stuff around it.
It's a generous time slot that could accommodate something approaching a concert format for part of the time, even if not every day, with the bits'n'pieces filling the space before or after. Why would that frighten the horses, aka "new audience". Isn't experiencing a concert part of the introduction to the world of classical music?

I would say so, although listening to complete works in isolation might also be much more likely to lead to further investigation than would a succession of bleeding chunks. I started to find my own way into classical music via complete performances (not part of a concert) of the 2nd symphonies of Elgar and
Sibelius. Regarding 'Classical Live, I certainly can't be bothered to spend my time waiting for something substantial to appear or search BBC Sounds trying to find out what was played when!

[french frank]

It's a generous time slot that could accommodate something approaching a concert format for part of the time, even if not every day, with the bits'n'pieces filling the space before or after. Why would that frighten the horses, aka "new audience". Isn't experiencing a concert part of the introduction to the world of classical music?

When Essential Classics started, a vaunted feature was not some listener-focused quiz question but a timed, full-length work, announced in the Radio Times (I had a friend who always checked that item and listened, but avoided the rest of the programme). It was Alan Davey who dropped that and made the programme what it is now.

[Ein Heldenleben]

... tho' I feel sure Mr Brendel did a mean third variation to the arietta in op 111







.

Yes but in that jazzy variation he lacks that last ounce of swing that Albert Ammons brings to it…

[Ein Heldenleben]

What I look for is whether I'll be asked questions about the criticisms made. "I really don't accept that R3 is becoming like CFM. Why do you say that?" At which point one can say that hours on end of short musical snippets, apparently randomly chosen, in the same stripped week-long presenter-led chunks, is what CFM does.

And to do otherwise would be more expensive. Bear in mind that R3 gets less money than any of the other BBC network radio stations; and that's the BBC's decision, not the controller's. The question for the controller is: Are you batting for the BBC which pays your salary, or for Radio 3, its reputation and its listeners?

In fact I reckon it might be more expensive to play snippets than complete works . It increases the costs at evry stage of production - finding the music , checking the clips , writing the script , and logging it. This doesn’t apply to live relays or specially done studio recordings - but in terms of the commercial discs that make up the bulk of the sequence programmes playing a complete work should be cheaper. The only caveat is that playing complete works increase needle time by reducing chat time. Some of those morning concerts in the 90’s listed in the Radio Times must have been 55 mins of music per hour whereas the chat these days….endless.

I wonder if they would ever let us in on the figures.

I suppose you could just work people into the ground with unpaid overtime and then those extra costs are not an issue. The trouble about a formulaic programme is that it’s ripe for AI ….and zero labour costs.

I suspect the reason they play single pieces it is that almost certainly market research suggests that’s what the bulk of people want. But of course market research can often be inaccurate.

[Ein Heldenleben]

And here folks is as requested from chatGP a twenty second radio link into Beethoven’s fifth. Which arrived instantly

"Now, let's immerse ourselves in one of the most iconic pieces of classical music: Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Known for its powerful opening motif, often described as 'fate knocking at the door,' this masterpiece encapsulates the struggle and triumph of the human spirit. Here it is, Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, a timeless journey of emotion and resilience."

It’s even got the cliché use of “iconic “

[Retune]

It's a generous time slot that could accommodate something approaching a concert format for part of the time, even if not every day, with the bits'n'pieces filling the space before or after. Why would that frighten the horses, aka "new audience". Isn't experiencing a concert part of the introduction to the world of classical music?

It would probably even be easier to give us some complete concert from one of the EBU member country broadcasts they are mining for the excerpts. But, as Ein Heldenleben notes for playlists in general, they probably think these fragments of music are more marketable (just as CFM does).

[french frank]

And here folks is as requested from chatGP a twenty second radio link into Beethoven’s fifth. Which arrived instantly

"Now, let's immerse ourselves in one of the most iconic pieces of classical music: Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Known for its powerful opening motif, often described as 'fate knocking at the door,' this masterpiece encapsulates the struggle and triumph of the human spirit. Here it is, Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, a timeless journey of emotion and resilience."

It’s even got the cliché use of “iconic “

I reckon they could even reproduce the voice of Presenter X (I name no names) introducing it. On your point about snippets, I wondered whether it was the record companies being difficult about the broadcasting of perhaps an entire CD which can either be recorded live off-air or via Sounds. Vee hef zee tecknologie.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I reckon they could even reproduce the voice of Presenter X (I name no names) introducing it. On your point about snippets, I wondered whether it was the record companies being difficult about the broadcasting of perhaps an entire CD which can either be recorded live off-air or via Sounds. Vee hef zee tecknologie.

It’s only a matter of time - it’s already happening with short snippets of actor dialogue that needs replacing.
I think what you say might well be true of new releases.

[Retune]

The AI will of course be choosing the playlists too (perhaps this is already happening). Here is ChatGPT's recommendation for the Essential Classics slot - I asked for something a bit more eclectic and challenging than its first attempt:

1. “Sinfonia” from Cantata BWV 29 by Johann Sebastian Bach
2. “Atmosphères” by György Ligeti
3. “Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major, Op. 55 ‘Eroica’: II. Marcia funebre” by Ludwig van Beethoven
4. “Different Trains: America, Before the War” by Steve Reich
5. “Concerto for Orchestra: IV. Intermezzo interrotto” by Béla Bartók
6. “Symphony No. 7 in C Major, Op. 105: I. Adagio” by Jean Sibelius
7. “Sequenza III for female voice” by Luciano Berio
8. “Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat Minor, Op. 36: I. Allegro agitato” by Sergei Rachmaninoff
9. “Le Marteau sans maître: Avant ‘l’artisanat furieux’” by Pierre Boulez
10. “Symphony No. 5 in D Minor, Op. 47: IV. Allegro non troppo” by Dmitri Shostakovich

[LMcD]

The AI will of course be choosing the playlists too (perhaps this is already happening). Here is ChatGPT's recommendation for the Essential Classics slot - I asked for something a bit more eclectic and challenging than its first attempt:

1. “Sinfonia” from Cantata BWV 29 by Johann Sebastian Bach
2. “Atmosphères” by György Ligeti
3. “Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major, Op. 55 ‘Eroica’: II. Marcia funebre” by Ludwig van Beethoven
4. “Different Trains: America, Before the War” by Steve Reich
5. “Concerto for Orchestra: IV. Intermezzo interrotto” by Béla Bartók
6. “Symphony No. 7 in C Major, Op. 105: I. Adagio” by Jean Sibelius
7. “Sequenza III for female voice” by Luciano Berio
8. “Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat Minor, Op. 36: I. Allegro agitato” by Sergei Rachmaninoff
9. “Le Marteau sans maître: Avant ‘l’artisanat furieux’” by Pierre Boulez
10. “Symphony No. 5 in D Minor, Op. 47: IV. Allegro non troppo” by Dmitri Shostakovich

I would have thought that no work lends itself less to this sort of 'extraction', 'cherry picking' or whatever you want to call it than the Sibelius 7th. One cardinal sin they have avoided is picking just one of the inner movements of Elgar's 2nd Symphony.
Just out of interest, I looked at the first 6 editions of CD Masters (a 2-hour programme) listed on the BBC Genome - they featured 6, 4, 6, 6, 6 and 5 items respectively.

[Andrew Slater]

I have several complaints (as someone my age usually has ), but the feature of the changes over recent years which I find most disturbing is the playing of single isolated movements, especially when they're from a piece I know fairly well. Sometimes it's merely disappointing not to hear the expected next movement, but sometimes it's akin to falling off a cliff, the shock can be so great. As a result I don't listen to much except the odd evening concert these days. (I don't really know why I'm bothering carrying on 'doing' the schedules.) The R3 producers really should consider more carefully what they're doing to the mental health of their audience.

[oddoneout]

In fact I reckon it might be more expensive to play snippets than complete works . It increases the costs at evry stage of production - finding the music , checking the clips , writing the script , and logging it. This doesn’t apply to live relays or specially done studio recordings - but in terms of the commercial discs that make up the bulk of the sequence programmes playing a complete work should be cheaper. The only caveat is that playing complete works increase needle time by reducing chat time. Some of those morning concerts in the 90’s listed in the Radio Times must have been 55 mins of music per hour whereas the chat these days….endless.

I wonder if they would ever let us in on the figures.

I suppose you could just work people into the ground with unpaid overtime and then those extra costs are not an issue. The trouble about a formulaic programme is that it’s ripe for AI ….and zero labour costs.

I suspect the reason they play single pieces it is that almost certainly market research suggests that’s what the bulk of people want. But of course market research can often be inaccurate.

But the questions that are asked are designed to produce a particular result so I don't know that it's a case of inaccuracy so much as manipulation by whatever body is commissioning it?

[cloughie]

And here folks is as requested from chatGP a twenty second radio link into Beethoven’s fifth. Which arrived instantly

"Now, let's immerse ourselves in one of the most iconic pieces of classical music: Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. Known for its powerful opening motif, often described as 'fate knocking at the door,' this masterpiece encapsulates the struggle and triumph of the human spirit. Here it is, Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, a timeless journey of emotion and resilience."

It’s even got the cliché use of “iconic “

You know I thought it was good when aged 14 I acquired a copy of GBR 6509 - a10” Philips Classical Favourites recording, Philadelphia Orch conducted by Eugene Ormandy - and I’ve really taken to the work ever since - but why do we have those opening bars thrown at us umpteen times every Prom season!

[Ein Heldenleben]

The AI will of course be choosing the playlists too (perhaps this is already happening). Here is ChatGPT's recommendation for the Essential Classics slot - I asked for something a bit more eclectic and challenging than its first attempt:

1. “Sinfonia” from Cantata BWV 29 by Johann Sebastian Bach
2. “Atmosphères” by György Ligeti
3. “Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major, Op. 55 ‘Eroica’: II. Marcia funebre” by Ludwig van Beethoven
4. “Different Trains: America, Before the War” by Steve Reich
5. “Concerto for Orchestra: IV. Intermezzo interrotto” by Béla Bartók
6. “Symphony No. 7 in C Major, Op. 105: I. Adagio” by Jean Sibelius
7. “Sequenza III for female voice” by Luciano Berio
8. “Piano Sonata No. 2 in B-flat Minor, Op. 36: I. Allegro agitato” by Sergei Rachmaninoff
9. “Le Marteau sans maître: Avant ‘l’artisanat furieux’” by Pierre Boulez
10. “Symphony No. 5 in D Minor, Op. 47: IV. Allegro non troppo” by Dmitri Shostakovich

Excellent selection and better than many an EC.

the day they have Le Marteau on EC the Martians will have landed .

(play on words unintentional)

Seriously it’s only a matter of time before most DJ and disc shows are produced by computer. It’s one of those fiddly complex jobs but I’m not sure it’s that creative.
Much more difficult to replace the producer in a live recording session or live relay or spokem word documentary - there must be some quite complex judgments to make,

I think the future of radio / streaming is bespoke playlists matched to individual tastes and introduced by whatever presenter you want providing there’s enough archive recording of them to voice recreate.

[cloughie]

I would have thought that no work lends itself less to this sort of 'extraction', 'cherry picking' or whatever you want to call it than the Sibelius 7th. One cardinal sin they have avoided is picking just one of the inner movements of Elgar's 2nd Symphony.
Just out of interest, I looked at the first 6 editions of CD Masters (a 2-hour programme) listed on the BBC Genome - they featured 6, 4, 6, 6, 6 and 5 items respectively.

Even worse is separating Elgar 1, movts 2 and 3!