"Saul" called off

[Joseph K]

This article is relevant, I feel - https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...Az5tCJ7EhezprY

[oddoneout]

Thank you for your comments. I expected this would be an area for string feelings.

Gut?

[Serial_Apologist]

Gut?

Some people are more highly-strung than others...

[PatrickMurtha]

That implies a symmetry between the two positions which is very far from being the case, smittims. For example, fascists are in fact against free speech, free association and freedom of thought, whereas socialism is committed to those things. That means that one might have quite different approaches to whether one or other position deserves a platform or not. We do know what fascists and socialists believe in. And, as JK has pointed out here before, there is no "happy medium" between racism and anti-racism.

Don’t you see what you are doing? You are taking it as an assumption that free speech, free association, freedom of thought, and anti-racism, all undefined, are “good things”, and since socialists are for those good things, and fascists are presumably against them, there is no symmetry. Well, I might * agree with you that those are generally good things (although “anti-racism” now encloses an entire political program that I have problems with). But their goodness can’t be assumed in this kind of argument. Further, if someone tries to make this elementary point, the immediate weaponized response is, “What? You're against these obviously good things?”, thereby making that questioner look tainted.

Plenty of socialists AND fascists just feel their basic position is proven and proceed on that basis. So there is some symmetry there.

* Or might not. I’m uneasy with Lockean assumptions, always have been. The Jeffersonian phrase “All men [or people, if you prefer] are created equal” is so obviously not true, I don’t even know where to begin.

[Joseph K]

* Or might not. I’m uneasy with Lockean assumptions, always have been. The Jeffersonian phrase “All men [or people, if you prefer] are created equal” is so obviously not true, I don’t even know where to begin.

Is it immediately evident once a baby is born that they are so much superior or inferior to other babies not long out the womb? Or is that not what you meant? Do tell.

[PatrickMurtha]

Is it immediately evident once a baby is born that they are so much superior or inferior to other babies not long out the womb? Or is that not what you meant? Do tell.

I am not sure what this question has to do with anything. “Superior” and “inferior” are loaded terms. Babies are obviously different, as are toddlers, children, adolescents, adults. Their inequalities on many fronts will manifest increasingly over time. Maybe they all deserve the same political status as adults, but that is not necessarily evident (and I don’t think that it is anywhere true in actual practice).

I could give you LOTS more ammunition to attack me with, trust me. I have questions and outright disbeliefs about matters that many on the Left consider way beyond questioning. But in the interests of self-preservation, I think I’ll keep much of that to myself (while I’m rather enjoying hinting at it).

A boss of mine once advised me not to “lead with my chin”, and it’s among the better pieces of advice I’ve received. On the other hand, these days the simplest statements are open to vicious attack, so the options seem to be (1) courting controversy just by opening your mouth, or (2) complete silence.

[PatrickMurtha]

I'm vigorously opposed to this sort of thing. Revisionism, cultural relativity, political correctness, cancel culture, etc. It all stinks.

100% with you there. And I’d like to be clear, I dislike it on both sides of the political spectrum. I dislike it when students on the Left try to prevent or shout down campus speakers whose views they disagree with. I dislike it when those on the Right try to ban or restrict books. It all stinks, you’re quite right.

[Joseph K]

I am not sure what this question has to do with anything. “Superior” and “inferior” are loaded terms. Babies are obviously different, as are toddlers, children, adolescents, adults. Their inequalities on many fronts will manifest increasingly over time. Maybe they all deserve the same political status as adults, but that is not necessarily evident (and I don’t think that it is anywhere true in actual practice).

Well, you're going to have to explain why you think Jefferson's phrase was so obviously wrong, because that was what my question was trying to interpret. And yes all people have different strengths and weaknesses, but yes, I think everyone deserves the same political status - one person, one vote - and I'm an adherent of extending this democracy to how corporations and the economy are organised. I just thought I'd lay my cards out so you know where I stand.

I could give you LOTS more ammunition to attack me with, trust me. I have questions and outright disbeliefs about matters that many on the Left consider way beyond questioning. But in the interests of self-preservation, I think I’ll keep much of that to myself (while I’m rather enjoying hinting at it).

A boss of mine once advised me not to “lead with my chin”, and it’s among the better pieces of advice I’ve received. On the other hand, these days the simplest statements are open to vicious attack, so the options seem to be (1) courting controversy just by opening your mouth, or (2) complete silence.

Not wishing to attack, or even viciously attack, just discuss.

[PatrickMurtha]

I don’t necessarily find that democracy is the best political system. It might be the least of evils, but I’m not even sure of that.

I admire Jefferson enormously, but that particular statement of his has egalitarian implications, and I’m not an egalitarian.

I would be 100% for citizens being required to pass a basic civics test before being allowed to vote. I am tired of idiots having so much of a say. Whether they were born idiots, or became idiots, or had idiocy thrust upon them, I don’t care. I don’t believe in the wisdom of the masses, not even a little bit.

[eighthobstruction]

[Joseph K]

I don’t necessarily find that democracy is the best political system. It might be the least of evils, but I’m not even sure of that.

I admire Jefferson enormously, but that particular statement of his has egalitarian implications, and I’m not an egalitarian.

I would be 100% for citizens being required to pass a basic civics test before being allowed to vote. I am tired of idiots having so much of a say. Whether they were born idiots, or became idiots, or had idiocy thrust upon them, I don’t care. I don’t believe in the wisdom of the masses, not even a little bit.

Whereas my criticisms of what passes for democracy - at least in countries with the FPTP system, but also probably others - would be that it's not nearly democratic enough! In the UK and others it's basically a case of what section of the oligarchy do we want ruling us. True, there are very slight discrepancies, but at the moment it's obvious that the opposition is pitching itself to the oligarchy, not to the millions of people who want to see palpable change. Thus, it isn't really proper democracy. (And that's before we get onto the role of the state or plutocrat-owned media...)
I like aspects of Nietzsche too I think he had some good stuff to say, not least about music, but I am in much more general agreement with Marx.

[PatrickMurtha]

I have taught Nietzsche and Marx, and find great value in both. The habit on the Right of using “Marxist” as a pejorative is lazy and unwarranted. I required my high school history and philosophy students to read The Communist Manifesto, and I would encourage everyone to dig into Capital. My students used to ask me if I was a Marxist, so I guess I taught him persuasively. But that was always my goal in teaching any philosopher, to present their ideas as persuasively as possible.

FPTP is, I agree, just a terrible voting system.

[PatrickMurtha]

One problem that I have is that even discussing an issue can be perceived as tantamount to being on “the wrong side” of it. For example, consider a campus speaker willing to brave any of these:

…whether democracy is actually the best political system? FASCIST!

…the highly controversial question of possible average racial differences in intelligence? RACIST!

…whether the “trans agenda” corresponds to anything in human biology? TRANSPHOBE! (and probably, MURDERER!)

I’m gay, and if someone wants to discuss negative implications and detriments of the gay rights agenda, I’m fine with it. Even positive developments have associated harms and unintended consequences.

But some people would have it that we can’t even discuss any of this, because the issues are all settled. News flash: They’re not.

[RichardB]

Don’t you see what you are doing?

Yes I do, I'm expressing an understanding of things based on a radical vision of equality and social justice, from which the principles of socialism emerge, rather than the other way around. As for people "passing a basic civics test before being allowed to vote", who decides what questions are on that test, and what concept of "civics" they are designed to promote? As a wise person once said, it voting actually changed anything, it would be made illegal.

[PatrickMurtha]

Yes I do, I'm expressing an understanding of things based on a radical vision of equality and social justice, from which the principles of socialism emerge, rather than the other way around. As for people "passing a basic civics test before being allowed to vote", who decides what questions are on that test, and what concept of "civics" they are designed to promote? As a wise person once said, it voting actually changed anything, it would be made illegal.

You can have your “radical vision”. I think I am familiar with it, and to my mind it is every bit as bad as Trumpiness in the other direction. It also doesn’t have much to do with Marx, or with anything that is workable in the “real world”. But go ahead, knock yourself out.

Mexico, by the way, like the US and I’m sure most countries, requires a basic civics test of applicants for citizenship, with the result that immigrants often have a much better understanding of how the country works than those who were born there. Call me crazy, but I don’t think that’s an optimal situation.