The "it" God

[eighthobstruction]

....does anyone know where the word 'wretch'/ 'wretched' comes from?....

[Pulcinella]

....does anyone know where the word 'wretch'/ 'wretched' comes from?....

Etymonline should help:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/wretched

[smittims]

The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology has 'wrecca' (old English): a wanderer, an exile, an adventurer.

[eighthobstruction]

....such a strong visual word....you can almost count the ribs of the chest and see the wet cloth sticking to sunken flesh....I like that it has the essense of witch (back in Early German....)....

[Pulcinella]

I might have to rethink my use of it [wretch, not 'it'!], as it might be more of an insult than I imagined, but I hope that the context helps.

I know I've said '"You little wretch", meaning imp, scoundrel, to some of the Year 5s when they've outsmarted me playing Uno or suchlike.

I think of a wretched thing to do or say being something harmful or painful.

[ardcarp]

Going back to 'it'...or maybe not....I am entirely sympathetic to people with gender issues. Being born apparently male and existing as a female and vice-versa....or indeed as neither and both....shouldn't cause hackles to rise. But I genuinely get confused about which pronoun to use. I get roundly scolded by my g-kids when I say 'he' instead of 'she' (and vice-versa) about friends or perhaps celebs. Is it the sex they started with or are now? They assume I'm displaying some sort of prejudice. I'm not! Just genuinely muddled about which pronoun to use. 'It' is just impolite in the extreme. I'm told 'they', 'them' and 'their' are the preferred words, but I just cannot bring myself to use plural pronouns for single individuals. We need new gender-neutral words. Why can't we invent a new God of personal and possessive singular pronouns?

[Joseph K]

I'm told 'they', 'them' and 'their' are the preferred words, but I just cannot bring myself to use plural pronouns for single individuals. We need new gender-neutral words. Why can't we invent a new God of personal and possessive singular pronouns?

As far as I'm aware 'they' 'them' and 'their' are not necessarily plural.

I sounds funny to me that in German 'girl' ('Maedchen') is neuter, so you say 'its' rather than 'her' etc.

[Pulcinella]

Going back to 'it'...or maybe not....I am entirely sympathetic to people with gender issues. Being born apparently male and existing as a female and vice-versa....or indeed as neither and both....shouldn't cause hackles to rise. But I genuinely get confused about which pronoun to use. I get roundly scolded by my g-kids when I say 'he' instead of 'she' (and vice-versa) about friends or perhaps celebs. Is it the sex they started with or are now? They assume I'm displaying some sort of prejudice. I'm not! Just genuinely muddled about which pronoun to use. 'It' is just impolite in the extreme. I'm told 'they', 'them' and 'their' are the preferred words, but I just cannot bring myself to use plural pronouns for single individuals. We need new gender-neutral words. Why can't we invent a new God of personal and possessive singular pronouns?

Plural 'they' is just awful, IMHO.
I picked up a primary-school-level text that used they/them/their (not always consistently) and thought that if I was a youngster I'd get very confused.

Freddie went to collect their bathing costume and walked to the swimming pool with Katie.
They jumped in, and in doing so drenched Katie (who was still standing at the edge of the pool).

In that second sentence, 'They' would be thought of by most readers as meaning both of them.

(That's an off-the-top-of-my-head contrived sentence; I'm sure that there are much worse examples others have come across.)

[oddoneout]

As far as I'm aware 'they' 'them' and 'their' are not necessarily plural.

I sounds funny to me that in German 'girl' ('Maedchen') is neuter, so you say 'its' rather than 'her' etc.

Well they certainly aren't now. I still find it difficult to get my head round, having spent too many decades using them in their plural sense. I also find that unless care is taken some sentences can become very confusing to sort out who/what is being referred to - simply using a person's name would clarify matters in many cases.

[RichardB]

Regarding "das Mädchen", in everyday usage you'd then use "sie", rather than "es" which sounds extremely archaic.

As for gender-neutral pronouns in English, singular "they" only really seems awkward to people of older generations, doesn't it? I try to use it as unselfconsciously as my students, but in spoken language I don't always succeed. When writing I'm already fluent with it, I mean it's a lot less awkward than "he or she" or "s/he" or whatever, quite apart from including non-binary people.

[Joseph K]

Regarding "das Mädchen", in everyday usage you'd then use "sie", rather than "es" which sounds extremely archaic.

For the past few weeks Duolingo has featured fairly heavily 'Rotkaeppchen' (Little Red Riding Hood, for those who don't know) so I guess a fairy tale would be the place to use the archaic version...

[oddoneout]

Regarding "das Mädchen", in everyday usage you'd then use "sie", rather than "es" which sounds extremely archaic.

As for gender-neutral pronouns in English, singular "they" only really seems awkward to people of older generations, doesn't it? I try to use it as unselfconsciously as my students, but in spoken language I don't always succeed. When writing I'm already fluent with it, I mean it's a lot less awkward than "he or she" or "s/he" or whatever, quite apart from including non-binary people.

And for that group, not using it(!) doesn't automatically constitute an insult/denial of personal identity or whatever. In recent years a whole new language has grown up around the way certain groups of people are described, and learning languages doesn't necessarily come easily or quickly, particularly when the need to use them is minimal. Sadly, fear of causing offence, or having faced a backlash for incorrect terminology, means that such issues don't get spoken about at all which is counter-productive in my view, since it may well remove opportunities to explain and clarify.

[Pulcinella]

So, in my example, you'd have to distinguish between:

They jumped into the pool
and
They both (all) jumped into the pool

It (They!) really grates for me: not because I'm an old fuddy duddy, but linguistically; it flies in the face of logic (IMHO).

We really do need some new inoffensive and unambiguous terminology.
I know that other languages are struggling too.

[Joseph K]

Plural 'they' is just awful, IMHO.
I picked up a primary-school-level text that used they/them/their (not always consistently) and thought that if I was a youngster I'd get very confused.

Freddie went to collect their bathing costume and walked to the swimming pool with Katie.
They jumped in, and in doing so drenched Katie (who was still standing at the edge of the pool).

In that second sentence, 'They' would be thought of by most readers as meaning both of them.

(That's an off-the-top-of-my-head contrived sentence; I'm sure that there are much worse examples others have come across.)

Yeah, I mean, the person's name would have just sufficed 'Freddie jumped in' etc. Language can be ambiguous - what if Hannah met Katie and she jumped in? Obvs another case of making more sense to use their actual name...

[RichardB]

linguistically; it flies in the face of logic (IMHO).

As do very many other things in the English language! Well, we have to use the language that's in front of us, not the one we wish it could be. I'm sure that at a certain point in history many people bemoaned the extinction of "thee/thou" except in religious contexts, but there it is. Language evolves to accommodate changes in society and culture, but probably it can't evolve quickly enough in many situations, like this one.