Music in school

[MrGongGong]

There is a drinking culture amongst many musicians. Are they drowning their sorrows, trying to scrape a living on perilously low pay, or are they just overgrown music students?

Stusic Mudents?

[ardcarp]

I have two questions about the 'orchestra in residence in a school' situation, which I think sounds brilliant.

1. Are not German schoolkids, from however 'poor' an area, generally more respectful of authority and teachers?
2. Do German schools have to go through he ludicrous procedure of CRB-checking everyone, including the caretaker's cat?

So could it happen over here?

[MrGongGong]

1. Are not German schoolkids, from however 'poor' an area, generally more respectful of authority and teachers?

If they are (and I have no idea?) then hanging around with musicians would seen to be a good way to challenge unquestioning"respect"

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

2. Do German schools have to go through he ludicrous procedure of CRB-checking everyone, including the caretaker's cat?

It isn't needing a CRB certificate that brings the system into disrepute. It's the ease of obtaining one that bothers me. You simply declare what they want to hear, and unless the issuer can prove otherwise, it goes through.

(Talking of cats, Mrs Norris was every bit as evil as Filtch.)

[Flosshilde]

There is a drinking culture amongst many musicians. Are they drowning their sorrows, trying to scrape a living on perilously low pay, or are they just overgrown music students?

I thought that was just the brass players? (perhaps bbm would know - it might expalin a few things )

[ardcarp]

There is an argument for a little more 'unquestioning respect' for teachers. I'm in the slightly unusual position (for someone of my age) of having care of two teenage grandchildren, and it is plainly obvious that (in one of their schools at least) useful teaching (sorry Gongers, learning) does not happen for most of the time because of 'behaviour issues'. I can almost anticipate what you're going to say next (earning respect and all that stuff, which to some extent I agree with) but there are two points, 1. Many talented graduates just will not go into the classroom jungle as a career choice and 2. What a waste of public resources for many schoolkids to emerge functionally illiterate...if they don't have the support of a 'nice middle class family' at home.

[MrGongGong]

It isn't needing a CRB certificate that brings the system into disrepute. It's the ease of obtaining one that bothers me. You simply declare what they want to hear, and unless the issuer can prove otherwise, it goes through.

Erm

The process checks whether you appear on the police computer database (and could be instant if it wasn't for the obsession with £) that's about it.
I know a musician who has the same name and once lived in the same place as someone in prison for murder. Every time he has to apply for one (not so often these days now we have the new system) it triggers a whole pile of panic until they realise that he isn't the same man.

[MrGongGong]

There is an argument for a little more 'unquestioning respect' for teachers. I'm in the slightly unusual position (for someone of my age) of having care of two teenage grandchildren, and it is plainly obvious that (in one of their schools at least) useful teaching (sorry Gongers, learning) does not happen for most of the time because of 'behaviour issues'. I can almost anticipate what you're going to say next (earning respect and all that stuff, which to some extent I agree with) but there are two points, 1. Many talented graduates just will not go into the classroom jungle as a career choice and 2. What a waste of public resources for many schoolkids to emerge functionally illiterate...if they don't have the support of a 'nice middle class family' at home.

You are conflating too different things IMV

There is no place for 'unquestioning respect' of the kind we were subjected to in the past.
There is a place for people being polite and respectful of everyone. Creating a culture where people can teach and learn isn't about dominance.
This is what people learn from participating in music of all kinds. The creation, rehearsal and performance of music is a collaborative process that involves experts in different areas working together to create something greater NOT a load of drones being drilled by a puppet master.
The other thing that music can teach is that different organisational structures can be useful for different contexts, the way in which one rehearses an improvised performance will be different to (from?) a Mozart string quartet or large opera.

[teamsaint]

Erm

The process checks whether you appear on the police computer database (and could be instant if it wasn't for the obsession with £) that's about it.
I know a musician who has the same name and once lived in the same place as someone in prison for murder. Every time he has to apply for one (not so often these days now we have the new system) it triggers a whole pile of panic until they realise that he isn't the same man.

And of course you have to declare that the people you live in the same house as you wouldnt fail a DBS check...so be careful who lives at your address.

[french frank]

There is no place for 'unquestioning respect' of the kind we were subjected to in the past.

It goes against the grain to encourage any kind of 'unquestioning' in children. But I don't think that 'we' did have 'unquestioning' respect. It's slightly different for children to be expected to start from a position of respect (and, after all, what decent teacher starts off being scornful/disdainful/contemptuous of children?). After that, you can say experience will influence mutual attitude.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It goes against the grain to encourage any kind of 'unquestioning' in children. But I don't think that 'we' did have 'unquestioning' respect. It's slightly different for children to be expected to start from a position of respect (and, after all, what decent teacher starts off being scornful/disdainful/contemptuous of children?). After that, you can say experience will influence mutual attitude.

True on all counts. In the 1960s, we showed very little respect for many of our teachers.

[MrGongGong]

True on all counts. In the 1960s, we showed very little respect for many of our teachers.

I should have said "attempted unquestioning respect"
I had great respect for some but absolutely none whatsoever for others.

[french frank]

I should have said "attempted unquestioning respect"
I had great respect for some but absolutely none whatsoever for others.

More or less what I said. But I might go further and say that 'children should start from a general position that they respect their teachers'. Should any individual teacher fall short, that is a separate matter.

But teachers have no chance at all if children's selfish prejudices take precedence. They aren't all clearsighted and wise beyond their years.

[MrGongGong]

But teachers have no chance at all if children's selfish prejudices take precedence. They aren't all clearsighted and wise beyond their years.

That's a bit 'Catholic' of you
There is NO original sin you know

What I see (and we aren't allowed to talk about politics ) is adults basing decisions on selfish prejudice and self interest and then as folks seeing this being applauded they naturally follow suit.

Maybe if people started from a position of mutual respect the world would be much more tolerant and a better place to live in.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That's a bit 'Catholic' of you
There is NO original sin you know

By the time children arrive at school, they've learnt a great deal about unoriginal sin.

What I see (and we aren't allowed to talk about politics ) is adults basing decisions on selfish prejudice and self interest and then as folks seeing this being applauded they naturally follow suit.

But it's also based upon experience. Of course prejudice can be an issue too.

Maybe if people started from a position of mutual respect the world would be much more tolerant and a better place to live in.

A sound philosophy, though sometimes too much tolerance (by parents wanting their children to be their friends) can be the source of problems at school