The Not-the-Proms Digression

[ahinton]

You no doubt could say that we are no longer baffled by Schoenberg, but after many years of advocacy by experts, some people still are, and the man himself said that there's plenty of music yet to be written in E major.

It's C major, actually, although after prolonged effort some year ago I was unable to trace the source of this and could only conclude that he probably didn't actually write it but tht it was said in conversation and may have been recorded.

Music for me is a vital part of my experience, but as a non musician I cannot be immersed in it at such depth as many artists can. I accept that, but in my listening time I'm afraid I'm more likely to choose music which does not require specialist knowledge to appreciate, even after repeated attempts . Sad isn't it ? Nevertheless the responsibility to reach out to me lies with the composer and performer, who of course have the right to expect me to travel with them as far as effort and time allow.

What's "sad" is your assumption that any music "requires" (I don't say might be enhanced for certain listeners by) "specialist knowledge"; good grief! - if anyone credibly accused my work of that, I'd be torn between telling them listen to something else (or something less polite!) and switching on the shredder! Sorabji, who some might argue might not perhaps be the easiest composer for some people to absorb, said that some of the most intelligent and perceptive comments that he had ever heard about his work came from people who were not professional musicians, some of whom could not even read music; we don't just write for our peers, you know! (or maybe in the case of certain more recent music perhaps you don't know)...

[MrGongGong]

An example of which would be...?

I'm intrigued by this as well

Bob Dylan springs to mind
(Or even the dreaded DoG where one needs the "specialist knowledge" of being unable to separate doggerel verse from the music to appreciate the work in it's "gloriousness")

Mr Hinton put it well in his last paragraph

I think at the bottom of this is often insecurity which is usually masked by irritation and the usual ENC quips

[Richard Barrett]

The composer Jane Wells used to live in Wells Next-the-sea

Now that's someone I used to spend a lot of time with that I haven't seen for many years. The internet tells me that she's still doing fine work with community-based projects.

[Richard Barrett]

the usual ENC quips

Indeed but let us not forget that it is World Naked Gardening Day tomorrow. Composers all over the world will be participating in their new clothes.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed but let us not forget that it is World Naked Gardening Day tomorrow. Composers all over the world will be participating in their new clothes.

Writing Music of the Fuchsia, no doubt.

[MrGongGong]

Writing Music of the Fuchsia, no doubt.

Or that piece by Mussorgsky

[Richard Barrett]

Writing Music of the Fuchsia, no doubt.

(I must remember that one)

[Richard Barrett]

Or that piece by Mussorgsky

That's enough bare mountains, MrGG, this is a family forum.

[Ferretfancy]

An example of which would be...?

And I see you make no attempt to address my request for you to back up your assertions with something, anything, that might make them look like other than ignorant bluster.

And in fact an enormous amount of pop music is in E major, for obvious reasons.

Ignorant bluster is not my stock in trade, but your offensiveness is. You and others know perfectly well that many listeners have difficulty listening to some, but not all,contemporary music.. I emphasise 'not all'

Rather than face up to this fact you resort to abuse.

I intend to stay on these boards during the Proms season, but after that I think I'll leave. I really don't want to enter my 81st year reading the curious blend of arrogance and facetiousness which takes up so much of this forum nowadays. There is simply too much else to occupy me.

[Richard Barrett]

Ignorant bluster is not my stock in trade

Well pardon me, but this is the kind of stuff you've been saying:

"I often felt that they seemed more concerned about impressing each other rather than informing the audience. It was probably a mistaken impression on my part, but I can't help feeling that something of the same kind operates with some contemporary composers." Yes it is mistaken. So why say it in the first place?
"If this sort of stuff still captures an audience" Rather boorishly dismissive, don't you think?
"I've attended quite a few avant garde premieres in my time" - but you don't give a single example.
"how few of those first performances led on to second performances and entered the repertory" - ditto.
"Nowadays composers tend to have a rather lower productivity, perhaps because they feel the need to be significant instead of aiming to please." Here comes that "perhaps" again.

I'm sorry but I don't know what else to call this but what I called it.

[Richard Barrett]

I really don't like the way posts are flying around from one thread to another today.

[ardcarp]

The invective is worthy of The Choir.......

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Well pardon me, but this is the kind of stuff you've been saying:

"I often felt that they seemed more concerned about impressing each other rather than informing the audience. It was probably a mistaken impression on my part, but I can't help feeling that something of the same kind operates with some contemporary composers." Yes it is mistaken. So why say it in the first place?
"If this sort of stuff still captures an audience" Rather boorishly dismissive, don't you think?
"I've attended quite a few avant garde premieres in my time" - but you don't give a single example.
"how few of those first performances led on to second performances and entered the repertory" - ditto.
"Nowadays composers tend to have a rather lower productivity, perhaps because they feel the need to be significant instead of aiming to please." Here comes that "perhaps" again.

I'm sorry but I don't know what else to call this but what I called it.

One of the characteristics of internet forums is a tendency to attack other posters, rather than relying on reasoned argument alone.

We are here for our shared interest in and love of music - not to attack one another when our views differ.

[MrGongGong]

The invective is worthy of The Choir.......

I don't go there anymore (as the Chumbas used to sing)

all together now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Ja...E&spfreload=10

[Barbirollians]

The popularity thing is, for the reason you point out and more, very hard to judge, even if it is worth trying to judge. I am really just challenging Barbi's assumption. ( I chose Matisse, unspoken, and RVW as both popular and broadly contemporaneous) and one might look at the popularity, ( record sales, performances etc,) of Reich or John Adams, (or indeed Radiohead) with other popular artists (exhibition attendances, book sales) like Emin or Hirst, or Banksy perhaps .

Interesting point about the paucity of books on music shelves in book shops. Considering the massive size of the music business , it is a constant surprise. I suppose that books work well on art simply on the level of showing the art, which , in music doesn't always work so well.
Unless it is a volume of Ferneyhough Scores, of course.


Re the construction of written material, ( novels in the 60's, the death of the author, etc)...interesting to note that most blokes start to read the newspaper from the back .

It is not an assumption TS - look at how many people flock to the Tate Modern yet do not flock to contemporary classical music . Indeed , it seems that the dreary minimalists attract the largest audiences - not the crash bang wallop brigade . The sad thing for many of the noise brigade is that the Second Viennese School and composers like Varese did it so much better a long time ago.