Is anybody actually watching?

[vinteuil]

.

... there must be a better system than this democracy. .

[P. G. Tipps]

She is indeed, jean, and I take your sexism point, but I for one also find Mr Salmond scary precisely because he is so cogent and effective (and charming, as is Ms Sturgeon). Economics aside, I'm also worried that (whatever the rights and wrongs of the argument, which I won't rehearse here), one part of the UK should be calling the shots on the defence policy of the whole UK thanks to an accident of topography. Though I suppose we might end up with Trident here in Milford Haven, alongside oil refineries and natural gas storage plant and power station......

That's exactly my view.

Mr Farage is also very 'cogent and effective' (despite being a man ) which is surely the main reason for recent UKIP successes in the polls?

Being 'cogent and effective' does not mean an attractive personality, or, more importantly, imply any sort of rectitude.

[jean]

It was the banks who brought us down in 2008, not the Labour government. But it's become received wisdom, repeated last night, that it was the government's fault.

It was the Tories who started the process of deregulating the banks.

[Nick Armstrong]

I find Nicky Morgan and Michael Gove equally scary.

The scary thing is I have no idea who Nicky Morgan is.

(Until I just looked her up, I thought he presented a couple of TV shows.)

The intolerable ones were the Plaid Cymru woman and the Labour man ("our young people" "our young people" "our young people" - the whole mechanical performance is completely unconvincing, it's like a scared eight year old trying on daddy's suit and mannerisms); the unsurprising ones were Farrago and Cameroon, doing the 'love-it-or-loathe-it' thing they do; and the surprising one was indeed the Sturgeon who delivered far more than the goods I'd been expecting. She was impressive last night (there is allegedly a very scary side to her but it's nothing to do with last night or her politics, and I couldn't possibly repeat it here)

[Anastasius]

....
Of course, he didn't recall that the Tories had been in power for 18 years before that....

Ah, but they didn't wreck the country [runs off stage and heads for cover ]

[Anastasius]

It was the banks who brought us down in 2008, not the Labour government. But it's become received wisdom, repeated last night, that it was the government's fault.

It was the Tories who started the process of deregulating the banks.

But not in isolation from the rest of the world. And it was Labour who set up a very daft tri-umvirate of regulators/overseers which has to go some way to explain how the banks were allowed to get away with things. At least the Tories didn't announce to the world that they were going to sell off a large part of our gold reserves in advance thus guaranteeing that the price would fall dramatically.

[Serial_Apologist]

It was the banks who brought us down in 2008, not the Labour government. But it's become received wisdom, repeated last night, that it was the government's fault.

It was the Tories who started the process of deregulating the banks.

Right on the button.

I'm no apologist for Gordon Brown, but one might have thought Milliband might have made a stab at defending him for saving "western civilisaton" and using our money to rescue the corruptibly run banks, thereby nearly broking the country - what alternative would the Tories have run? - though he did remind us that the Tories were behind all Labour's mistaken previous banking reforms.

If Nicola Sturgeon's persuasiveness proved on thing, it's the need for an English reformist party to the left of Labour; good though the Greens are they would soon realise their policies wouldn't be implementable without an increased role for nationalisation, which would be in conflict with EU edicts.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... there must be a better system than this democracy. .

There must be a better system than this!

Democracy?

[P. G. Tipps]

I'm no apologist for Gordon Brown, but one might have thought Milliband might have made a stab at defending him for saving "western civilisaton" ...

Even that would have been something of an underestimation.

Broon himself inadvertently let slip to Parliament that he had 'saved the world'.

[mangerton]

Economics aside, I'm also worried that (whatever the rights and wrongs of the argument, which I won't rehearse here), one part of the UK should be calling the shots on the defence policy of the whole UK thanks to an accident of topography. Though I suppose we might end up with Trident here in Milford Haven, alongside oil refineries and natural gas storage plant and power station......

One thing's for sure. Trident will never be based on the Thames. It's interesting to note that those in Government who "called the shots" on the siting of the installations at Faslane, the Holy Loch, Dounreay, and Windscale took great pains to ensure they were a long way from London.

I lived in sight of the Holy Loch for seven years, and with Faslane just round the corner, the only saving grace was that if nuclear war had broken out, I wouldn't have known a thing about it.

[teamsaint]

Labour didnt start bank deregulation, but they were complicit in failing to stop the process.

But it was bank greed that caused the world recession, not the inaction of Blair. and Brown.

And it was the bank crash, ( as well as the erosion of the tax take from the corporate sector) that caused public finance To disintegrate.

Oh and here is how to nail the lie about public spending rocketing under
Labour governments.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=phNtm3LmDZENC3I0s7AvHBQ

Note especially how public spending increases just as the bank crash hits.
Also how, over time, broadly speaking, the % of GDP is the same under red and blue.
Also, how the tories absolutely failed to control public spending under Thatcher, taking 6 years to get it back to the level they inherited.

What % of GDP public spending should be at is another question. It is the lies about it that bother me.

[Dave2002]

Oh and here is how to nail the lie about public spending rocketing under
Labour governments.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=phNtm3LmDZENC3I0s7AvHBQ

Note especially how public spending increases just as the bank crash hits.
Also how, over time, broadly speaking, the % of GDP is the same under red and blue.
Also, how the tories absolutely failed to control public spending under Thatcher, taking 6 years to get it back to the level i they inherited.

What % of GDP public spending should be at is another question. It is the lies about it that bother me.

The spreadsheet doesn't show enough detail.

There could be other factors.

I agree that there are a lot of lies and misconceptions. Some of us saw 7 people on TV last night proclaiming all sorts of nonsense, and "explanations".
The whole business is sickening. The only reason to put up with any of this, is that some of the possible alternative modes of "government" would actually be worse, and some of the extant examples are far worse.

[Tevot]

Labour didnt start bank deregulation, but they were complicit in failing to stop the process.

But it was bank greed that caused the world recession, not the inaction of Blair. and Brown.

And it was the bank crash, ( as well as the erosion of the tax take from the corporate sector) that caused public finance To disintegrate.

Fully agree with you TS - but New Labour helped facilitate it by accepting much of the Thatcherite / Chicago School free market ethos (e.g. Mandelson being seriously relaxed about the stinking rich - I paraphrase of course)

And this brings us to the last election - where many voted for what seemed to be a left of centre alternative. Take a bow Mr Clegg... And what did we get ?

and they wonder why people are sick of politicians...

Best Wishes,

Tevot

[MrGongGong]

It was the banks who brought us down in 2008, not the Labour government. But it's become received wisdom, repeated last night, that it was the government's fault.
.

Why do the Labour party allow this to go unchallenged all the time?
Apologising for something that isn't your fault might be a way of gaining popularity but is a bit pathetic

There must be a better system than this!

Democracy?

We can't have that
and people don't want it anyway

WHY doesn't anyone (apart from the Green's) challenge the idea of "trickle down economics"?
Some "choice" that gives us

[teamsaint]

The spreadsheet doesn't show enough detail.

There could be other factors.

I agree that there are a lot of lies and misconceptions. Some of us saw 7 people on TV last night proclaiming all sorts of nonsense, and "explanations".
The whole business is sickening. The only reason to put up with any of this, is that some of the possible alternative modes of "government" would actually be worse, and some of the extant examples are far worse.

I agree there could be other factors, but public spending as a percentage of GDP really is crucial,and here it is the big picture that matters, not the odd percentage.

The lie about labour and public spending is a big and pernicious lie, and really gets in the way of proper debate.