Is anybody actually watching?

[teamsaint]

But it was also Joe Public who relished all those cheap loans and mortgages. 'We' also share the blame. As do the politicians.

Some people some of the time liked the " cheap" loans. many others suffered in the madness of the property market.

But to blame the public is to blame the victims. Banks' greed, especially in the US housing market, caused the world recesssion.

[Anastasius]

I think that the thing is with all parties is that parts of them appeal to some people, parts to other people. So many mixed messages. Hard to distinguish between them. MP's driven by their constituents - ie he who shouts loudest. No-one takes the bigger picture.

[Anastasius]

Some people some of the time liked the " cheap" loans. many others suffered in the madness of the property market.

But to blame the public is to blame the victims. Banks' greed, especially in the US housing market, caused the world recesssion.

Bit like saying 'Please Sir - it wasn't me'. We'll have to differ on this one as I agree with you that banks were greedy but so also were a large slice of the public. And in the UK Brown for setting up an unmanageable triumvirate so that stuff fell down the cracks.

[jean]

...MP's driven by their constituents...

That would be something - but it's been obvious for a while now that Labour have been so concerned to capture that floating vote in marginal constituencies that they have entirely neglected the people they're supposed to represent.

[teamsaint]

Bit like saying 'Please Sir - it wasn't me'. We'll have to differ on this one as I agree with you that banks were greedy but so also were a large slice of the public. And in the UK Brown for setting up an unmanageable triumvirate so that stuff fell down the cracks.

So, if you want to buy a house, which is an expensive purchase, And there is a " cheap" mortgage on offer, you are supposed to do what exactly?


( a question one might usefully put to any young person living and working in London and earning less than about £50k PA)

[P. G. Tipps]

But it was also Joe Public who relished all those cheap loans and mortgages. 'We' also share the blame. As do the politicians.

Like a breath of fresh air amidst all the hot stuff!

Of course 'we' share the blame. In the good old days of readily-available loans who was going to refuse?

There were a few who did warn of impending calamity. Unfortunately there are always a few who always warn of impending calamity and they simply tend to be ignored whilst the rest go on partying. Nothing worse than a miserable old party-pooper, eh?

The crash was arguably as much 'our' fault as 'theirs' (politicians and bankers). Gross over-borrowing occurred domestically as well as nationally and internationally.

[Historian]

One thing's for sure. Trident will never be based on the Thames. It's interesting to note that those in Government who "called the shots" on the siting of the installations at Faslane, the Holy Loch, Dounreay, and Windscale took great pains to ensure they were a long way from London.

While not disagreeing with your overall argument, I would point out that there are operational reasons why submarines armed with ballistic missiles are not based in shallow-water ports on lengthy river estuaries.

[Serial_Apologist]

The crash was arguably as much 'our' fault as 'theirs' (politicians and bankers). Gross over-borrowing occurred domestically as well as nationally and internationally.

People say, "We can't very well blame the banks for greed when by falling for their blanshiments we made ourselves complicit".

But while a notion of common guilt is inscribed in a pre-existing culture of ethics that sees human nature as flawed, justifiable insecurity is additionally a part of the working class mindset: an experienced reality which is not shared by the rich who, having overseen and justified their appropriation and miserly sharing out of the wealth created by the rest of society, use their mass media and, ultimately, hold over the state, to inculcate an accompanying sense of collective self-blame on their underlings.

Only when this ideological and psychological double-bind on the populace is broken by being seen through will the preconditions for change become possible.

[ahinton]

So, if you want to buy a house, which is an expensive purchase, And there is a " cheap" mortgage on offer, you are supposed to do what exactly?


( a question one might usefully put to any young person living and working in London and earning less than about £50k PA)

And the rest! At 3 × salary, all that could be bought is a house costing £150K + whatever deposit one cold afford. ONS gives th e average UK house price as just over £270K, so imagine what it would be in London!

[ahinton]

Like a breath of fresh air amidst all the hot stuff!

Of course 'we' share the blame. In the good old days of readily-available loans who was going to refuse?

There were a few who did warn of impending calamity. Unfortunately there are always a few who always warn of impending calamity and they simply tend to be ignored whilst the rest go on partying. Nothing worse than a miserable old party-pooper, eh?

The crash was arguably as much 'our' fault as 'theirs' (politicians and bankers). Gross over-borrowing occurred domestically as well as nationally and internationally.

So how do you borrow for your home, then? With average house prices at over £270K and average salaries at less than 10% of that, what's to be done? And it's not just housing; how many people have to take out loans to fund their four- (and in some cases five- ) figure seasons tickets to get to work and back? Whilst public transport fares admittedly don't rise in line with house prices, people have to live somewhere and someone has to own those homes; rents tend to rise in line with increases in property values so that sometimes it can be cheaper to borrow to buy one's own than to rent something equivalent, but of course who can predict what might happen to interest rates, which are as low as they are right now in part as a consequence of the banking crisis...

[P. G. Tipps]

People say, "We can't very well blame the banks for greed when by falling for their blanshiments we made ourselves complicit".

But while a notion of common guilt is inscribed in a pre-existing culture of ethics that sees human nature as flawed, justifiable insecurity is additionally a part of the working class mindset: an experienced reality which is not shared by the rich who, having overseen and justified their appropriation and miserly sharing out of the wealth created by the rest of society, use their mass media and, ultimately, hold over the state, to inculcate an accompanying sense of collective self-blame on their underlings.

Only when this ideological and psychological double-bind on the populace is broken by being seen through will the preconditions for change become possible.

Hey, steady on ...

Trouble with that is that there is no evidence that the majority of underlings particularly want change.

Astonishing as it may seem to some they tend to value personal freedom over state diktat ...

[Serial_Apologist]

So how do you borrow for your home, then? With average house prices at over £270K and average salaries at less than 10% of that, what's to be done? And it's not just housing; how many people have to take out loans to fund their four- (and in some cases five- ) figure seasons tickets to get to work and back? Whilst public transport fares admittedly don't rise in line with house prices, people have to live somewhere and someone has to own those homes; rents tend to rise in line with increases in property values so that sometimes it can be cheaper to borrow to buy one's own than to rent something equivalent, but of course who can predict what might happen to interest rates, which are as low as they are right now in part as a consequence of the banking crisis...

A wise man once said that patriotism should have no hold over working class men and women, because, being propertyless, the working classes have no country for which to feel pride. Then it was argued that one only had to look at the huge increase in home ownership among the working classes to see that Marx had been proved wrong in the long term. We are undoubtedly returning to that age.

[Serial_Apologist]

Hey, steady on ...

Trouble with that is that there is no evidence that the majority of underlings particularly want change.

Astonishing as it may seem to some they tend to value personal freedom over state diktat ...

Personal freedom is a variable commodity, though.

Also, it's not a choice between individual freedom and state or other diktat, including self-flagellation - but you know that, it's what you always say! Collective freedom (as in "NHS", but democratised) should provide the default starting line for individual responsibility rather than the public school/boot camp/army model norms on offer.

Surely it's preferable to understand these mechanisms prior to devising action than blindly rebel and be picked off one by one?

[Anastasius]

So, if you want to buy a house, which is an expensive purchase, And there is a " cheap" mortgage on offer, you are supposed to do what exactly?


( a question one might usefully put to any young person living and working in London and earning less than about £50k PA)

Naturally you will take the cheaper mortgage. But the real question is 'Can you afford it' and the answer for many in the sub-prime market in the US that kicked this all off is 'No'. QED.

[MrGongGong]

Naturally you will take the cheaper mortgage. But the real question is 'Can you afford it' and the answer for many in the sub-prime market in the US that kicked this all off is 'No'. QED.

The "real" question is more like
"how can I find somewhere to live so I can work and have a life"
If people are offered a way to do that by a financial institution then they will naturally take it up.
Blaming people for not being experts in things that they sought advice from experts from isn't really going to help anyone.