Air crash - and update

[Serial_Apologist]

Was it Wittgenstein who said that language is the dress of thought?

Language and how it is structured is, surely, the framework of thought, no?

I think what is being confused here with thought is mental response to stimulus, whether that stimulus is internal - like hunger - or external. We infer thought as taking place in the head of a cat as it watches a bird, imagining that it must be thinking to itself, gosh, that bird looks tasty, and I feel hungry; I'd better keep myself as still as I can so as not to be detected. But this is because we have formulated language as a tool to shape our intentions, language which is necessary to humans given that it has come about and in turn shaped the world we live together in, which is a world made more complex by the feedback delay system introduced by acts of thinking than that of the cat.

One of the things meditation teachers teach is paying attention to the immediate as an optimising means of connecting with our surrounds using "peripheral attention", which for purposes of sensory connection tests being able to suspend thought for as long as possible. In exercises of this kind the overriding effects of thought, and how thought expresses itself in and through the structures of language, become clear. Were this not a fact it would not be a constant theme in many Zen stories which deal with the problem of trying to stop thought with thought, which in Zen is known through many vivid images, such as trying to wash off blood with blood, or banging a drum in search for a fugitive. Much of so-called spiritual enlightenment is concerned with how one manages to reconcile oneself with this problem.

[Dave2002]

Language and how it is structured is, surely, the framework of thought, no?

No!

I think what is being confused here with thought is mental response to stimulus, whether that stimulus is internal - like hunger - or external. We infer thought as taking place in the head of a cat as it watches a bird, imagining that it must be thinking to itself, gosh, that bird looks tasty, and I feel hungry; I'd better keep myself as still as I can so as not to be detected.

You may infer that, but there are neuroscientists who have, I believe, evidence that you are wrong.

But this is because we have formulated language as a tool to shape our intentions, language which is necessary to humans given that it has come about and in turn shaped the world we live together in, which is a world made more complex by the feedback delay system introduced by acts of thinking than that of the cat.

One of the things meditation teachers teach is paying attention to the immediate as an optimising means of connecting with our surrounds using "peripheral attention", which for purposes of sensory connection tests being able to suspend thought for as long as possible. In exercises of this kind the overriding effects of thought, and how thought expresses itself in and through the structures of language, become clear. Were this not a fact it would not be a constant theme in many Zen stories which deal with the problem of trying to stop thought with thought, which in Zen is known through many vivid images, such as trying to wash off blood with blood, or banging a drum in search for a fugitive. Much of so-called spiritual enlightenment is concerned with how one manages to reconcile oneself with this problem.

That's as maybe, but meditation teachers are not necessarily the best people to judge how any of us, cats, dogs or humans think.
You may think they are, but they are not.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, thank you; that's cleared that up then!

[doversoul1]

You may think they are, but they are not.

Doesn’t it depends on what it is that you mean by 'to think'?

[MrGongGong]

Language and how it is structured is, surely, the framework of thought, no?

No

BUT

Language and how it is structured can be a framework of thought,

[vinteuil]

Was it Wittgenstein who said that language is the dress of thought?

... a little earlier : Samuel Johnson in his Life of Cowley -

"His diction was, in his own time, censured as negligent. He seems not to have known, or not to have considered, that words, being arbitrary, must owe their power to association, and have the influence, and that only, which custom has given them. Language is the dress of thought: and, as the noblest mien, or most graceful action, would be degraded and obscured by a garb appropriated to the gross employments of rusticks or mechanicks; so the most heroick sentiments will lose their efficacy, and the most splendid ideas drop their magnificence, if they are conveyed by words used commonly upon low and trivial occasions, debased by vulgar mouths, and contaminated by inelegant applications.

Truth, indeed, is always truth, and reason is always reason; they have an intrinsick and unalterable value, and constitute that intellectual gold which defies destruction; but gold may be so concealed in baser matter, that only a chymist can recover it; sense may be so hidden in unrefined and plebeian words, that none but philosophers can distinguish it; and both may be so buried in impurities, as not to pay the cost of their extraction.

The diction, being the vehicle of the thoughts, first presents itself to the intellectual eye; and, if the first appearance offends, a further knowledge is not often sought. Whatever professes to benefit by pleasing, must please at once. The pleasures of the mind imply something sudden and unexpected; that which elevates must always surprise. What is perceived by slow degrees may gratify us with the consciousness of improvement, but will never strike with the sense of pleasure."


[ Lives of the Poets, 1779-1781 ]

[jean]

Earlier yet: the idea is found in the Classical rhetoricians.

[ahinton]

Was it Wittgenstein who said that language is the dress of thought?

I'm not sure right now, but I do know that de la Rochefoucauld is credited as having said that language was given to Man to conceal his toughts, which made me ponder on whether or to what extent musical language might be thought of as having been given to Man to conceal the thoughts that cannot be concealed by means of words alone...

Air crash and updates, anyone?...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Air crash and updates, anyone?...

No, thank you - this is far more interesting, rewarding and valuable.

[ahinton]

No, thank you - this is far more interesting, rewarding and valuable.

I asked that question only becaue that is still the topic of this thread; why not hive off these other posts into another thread?!

[Serial_Apologist]

... a little earlier : Samuel Johnson in his Life of Cowley -

"His diction was, in his own time, censured as negligent. He seems not to have known, or not to have considered, that words, being arbitrary, must owe their power to association, and have the influence, and that only, which custom has given them. Language is the dress of thought: and, as the noblest mien, or most graceful action, would be degraded and obscured by a garb appropriated to the gross employments of rusticks or mechanicks; so the most heroick sentiments will lose their efficacy, and the most splendid ideas drop their magnificence, if they are conveyed by words used commonly upon low and trivial occasions, debased by vulgar mouths, and contaminated by inelegant applications.

Truth, indeed, is always truth, and reason is always reason; they have an intrinsick and unalterable value, and constitute that intellectual gold which defies destruction; but gold may be so concealed in baser matter, that only a chymist can recover it; sense may be so hidden in unrefined and plebeian words, that none but philosophers can distinguish it; and both may be so buried in impurities, as not to pay the cost of their extraction.

The diction, being the vehicle of the thoughts, first presents itself to the intellectual eye; and, if the first appearance offends, a further knowledge is not often sought. Whatever professes to benefit by pleasing, must please at once. The pleasures of the mind imply something sudden and unexpected; that which elevates must always surprise. What is perceived by slow degrees may gratify us with the consciousness of improvement, but will never strike with the sense of pleasure."


[ Lives of the Poets, 1779-1781 ]

Thanks very much indeed for providing the correct source, Vints. Most kind!