Air crash - and update

[Dave2002]

Very sad to hear and read about the Germanwings air crash. Condolences and sympathy to everyone involved.

The latest update seems plausible, though there could be other explanations - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32063587

It could still be too early to jump to the conclusion that the co-pilot crashed the plane deliberately, so perhaps a more cautious approach to a search for a cause would be appropriate.

One does wonder whether having some form of ground or air control would be helpful. It is probably possible to fly modern planes remotely - but that might actually open up more security/safefy holes than it would plug.

[Serial_Apologist]

It could still be too early to jump to the conclusion that the co-pilot crashed the plane deliberately, so perhaps a more cautious approach to a search for a cause would be appropriate.

Then, but why would he lock the pilot out of the cabin?

One does wonder whether having some form of ground or air control would be helpful. It is probably possible to fly modern planes remotely - but that might actually open up more security/safefy holes than it would plug.

The answer probably lies in how easily any ground/air control system could be interfered with by hacking. But how safe in this respect are on-board aircraft computers?

[Dave2002]

Then, but why would he lock the pilot out of the cabin?



The answer probably lies in how easily any ground/air control system could be interfered with by hacking. But how safe in this respect are on-board aircraft computers?

OK - but without further evidence it could perhaps have been accidental, and maybe the co pilot became ill? This is speculation - perhaps the investigating authorities know more.

Unlocking the door itself seems to cause possible problems - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-maga...nitor-32070528 The delays in the anti-hijacking procedure may have had an effect - and perhaps the crew members outside the cockpit forgot, or didn't know the password, or got their fingers mixed up. They didn't have too much time to get it right.

The protocols on European flights don't seem to be up to US standards - which it seems may require another crew member to be on the flight deck, so that there are always at least 2 crew in the cabin, even if one is not a pilot.

Agree about the hacking if a plane is flown remotely, though there may be possibilities to only have that happen under certain extreme and carefully controlled circumstances.

[Serial_Apologist]

I suppose it's also possible that emerging background info on the co-pilot is being held back for understandable reasons, until verification is firmed up.

[Dave2002]

I suppose it's also possible that emerging background info on the co-pilot is being held back for understandable reasons, until verification is firmed up.

There are assertions being made which are not absolutely justifiable. Apparently it is believed that the co pilot was alive until just before the impact, but can we be sure that he refused to respond to the pilot, or to the air traffic control? Maybe - but seemingly he didn't say anything, so perhaps the investigators have more information. He doesn't appear to have been linked to any terrorist group, or to have had any obvious psychological problem - but maybe he did? One person who knew him said this was very out of character.

There doesn't appear to have been any motive, if this was indeed a deliberate act, other than to commit suicide and take a lot of other people along with him.

[Don Petter]

I agree we should not jump to conclusions ahead of the proven facts, but it does perhaps seem strange that ‘pilot suicides’ being not all that uncommon, with more than two dozen in light planes in the last twenty years and at least three in commercial airliners in that time (the last in 2013 in Namibia, having a co-pilot locked out of the cockpit in uncanny similarity to the current reports) that flight personnel procedures have not been modified before.

I suppose it is in human nature to require a high profile event to prompt such a review.

[John Wright]

The protocols on European flights don't seem to be up to US standards - which it seems may require another crew member to be on the flight deck, so that there are always at least 2 crew in the cabin, even if one is not a pilot.

Dave,

Ryanair do this so why not Lufthansa/Germanwings?

The co-pilot set the altitude to go down to 100 metres. Approaching a 2000m high mountain range, what other conclusion than suicide/murder intention?

[P. G. Tipps]

The co-pilot set the altitude to go down to 100 metres. Approaching a 2000m high mountain range, what other conclusion than suicide/murder intention?

Sadly, no other conclusion is possible apart from the co-pilot suddenly and silently collapsing onto both the altitude meter and door-lock switches simultaneously, whilst somehow managing to breathe 'normally' at the same time. And all this happening at the very point when he happened to be alone in the cockpit. A bit of a long shot, I fear ...

One dreads to think what his already grieving parents are going through at this time faced with the reality of the latest horrifying evidence from the French authorities.

Poor, poor souls.

[ahinton]

Sadly, no other conclusion is possible apart from the co-pilot suddenly and silently collapsing onto both the altitude meter and door-lock switches simultaneously, whilst somehow managing to breathe 'normally' at the same time. And all this happening at the very point when he happened to be alone in the cockpit. A bit of a long shot, I fear ...

One dreads to think what his already grieving parents are going through at this time faced with the reality of the latest horrifying evidence from the French authorities.

Poor, poor souls.

Indeed so, on all counts.

It's hard to understand - as someone mentioned in an interview on this morning's Today prograame on BBC R4 - why anyone wanting to commit suicide for whatever reason or none would wilfully take down 150 other people unknown to him at the same time, although such incidents are not entirely unknown.

The additional security measures implemented with a view to making it harder for terrorists aboard a flight to enter the cockpit have ironically resulted in making incidents such as this one easier to carry out. Imagine the situation in which a pilot and/or co-pilot in the cockpit, knowing that a terrorist is trying to enter that cockpit, could feel reasonably secure in the knowledge that he/she/they is/are able to deny entry even to anyone knowing the entry code and having attempted to use it; that's a good defence against possible terrorist takeover of control of the aircraft but at the same time can enable what appears to have happened in this instance.

Now that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203 reveals that he contrived successfully to conceal from the airline details of his medical condition, his grieving parents will have this further information to contend with; I can only hope that there are no reprisals...

[Dave2002]

Indeed so, on all counts.

It's hard to understand - as someone mentioned in an interview on this morning's Today prograame on BBC R4 - why anyone wanting to commit suicide for whatever reason or none would wilfully take down 150 other people unknown to him at the same time, although such incidents are not entirely unknown.

The additional security measures implemented with a view to making it harder for terrorists aboard a flight to enter the cockpit have ironically resulted in making incidents such as this one easier to carry out. Imagine the situation in which a pilot and/or co-pilot in the cockpit, knowing that a terrorist is trying to enter that cockpit, could feel reasonably secure in the knowledge that he/she/they is/are able to deny entry even to anyone knowing the entry code and having attempted to use it; that's a good defence against possible terrorist takeover of control of the aircraft but at the same time can enable what appears to have happened in this instance.

Now that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203 reveals that he contrived successfully to conceal from the airline details of his medical condition, his grieving parents will have this further information to contend with; I can only hope that there are no reprisals...

I would say that it's now 95% certain that this was a suicide/murder. I can still imagine other circumstances in which the outcome would be the same, and the evidence that we have at present the same, but the most likely is as suggested. I still don't consider that evidence that the co-pilot was still breathing at the time of impact is conclusive, without any other more positive evidence - which there may be, but we haven't been given access to that.

I find it surprising that there is apparently a distinction between suicide and murder in these cases. More than 100 people killed counts as murder, seemingly. Seems largely irrelevant and a curious definition. I would have thought that even 10 would be enough to count as murder, though a posthumous judgement of guilty is not very pragmatic as a deterrent or for leading to effective punishment.

Regarding the illnesses which the copilot suffered from, and for which he actually had a medical certificate on the day of the flight, the latest indications are that these were not for depression.

There are still a lot of questions to be answered, and also changes in systems and protocols to be proposed and implemented.

I also very much hope that there are no other repercussions on innocent parties. All of the bereaved people associated with this incident and friends and colleagues of the victims should have all the help that society can provide.

[mercia]

is it likely that this pilot and co-pilot would have worked together before? or are they just as likely to have been complete strangers? I was just thinking that the pilot might have picked up on any particular change in the co-pilot, but only if he knew him well.

[Beef Oven!]

It's hard to understand.........why anyone wanting to commit suicide for whatever reason or none would wilfully take down 150 other people

Look at it as murder, with suicide a cameo.

[Dave2002]

Look at it as murder, with suicide a cameo.

There have been cases of train drivers attempting, and perhaps succeeding, in such efforts. I think that "usually" the motive is suicide, everything else is just a by product. Of course it's difficult to tell, but if people don't value their own lives, it isn't necessarily logical to assume that they will value anyone else's. Sadly.

In some cases the suicide really does value the lives of others, and attempts to minimise risk to them, but it surely depends on the situation, circumstances, motives and mental state of the person committing the act.

[Pianorak]

is it likely that this pilot and co-pilot would have worked together before? or are they just as likely to have been complete strangers? I was just thinking that the pilot might have picked up on any particular change in the co-pilot, but only if he knew him well.

Interesting point, mercia. But, as always, there are two sides to be considered. I found these two arguments - pro and contra - on an aviation forum:
a)
I would like to see the idea of “flying teams” become more common. The idea being that a captain and FO, and a senior FA (or two) would normally work as a team. . . The team would monitor each other and know better than anyone if one of them was unwell.
b)
The problem with working in teams that always fly together in my mind you would get to know the other person and things would start to slide. Not much at first but SOPS wouldn't be followed rigorously, sterile cockpit not enforced... Among other things.
[SOPS = Standard operating procedures]

[P. G. Tipps]

Logic, and what we know at the moment appear to be the facts, dictate that, if there had been another person in the cockpit, the co-pilot might well have been deterred from doing what he did. Since this latest horror a number of European airlines have already followed what is apparently US aviation practice which demands at least two in the cockpit at all times.

In these days of auto-pilot, any third crew member only requires a basic training of where altitude meters, lock switches etc are situated and it is a good bet that many of them will already know as much about these things as the pilots.

There can never be legislation or psychiatric measures which will always successfully prevent or predict the sometimes unpredictability of the human mind. The great tragedy and irony of this dreadful occurrence was that, in the end, it was very measures which were rightly introduced to keep the crew and passengers safe from third-party terrorism which allowed the co-pilot to do what he did.

Surely the ultimate nightmare for airline safety experts... ?