If only the debate were really over

[Richard Barrett]

Some scientists reckon there are parallel universes in the same space. Others do not.

This is because no practical crucial experiment has as yet been framed in order to distinguish between the different interpretations of quantum physics. If such an experiment were carried out, every scientist in the world (with the possible exception of a few cranks) would immediately accept the result, whether or not it accorded with whatever hunch they might previously have had. Such an experiment has indeed been carried out in connection with the medical efficacy of homeopathy. Therefore the matter under discussion can't really be compared with whether there are parallel universes or not.

[gradus]

I don't think anyone knows why the placebo effect works, so far it has eluded scientific explanation. Perhaps homeopathy should be cut some slack as many people claim to have been helped by it. Its not so many years since osteopathy was sneered at by the medical establishment yet I've found it effective, similarly acupuncture.

[MrGongGong]

Perhaps homeopathy should be cut some slack as many people claim to have been helped by it.

Spot on
Now I must go as I need to sacrifice a goat to make my allotment fertile (worked last year with the cat)

[umslopogaas]

Mr GG, buy a tub of Growmore, cost you less than a goat. I think, I admit I've never bought a goat.

[french frank]

Or blood, fish and bone ...

[Richard Barrett]

not so many years since osteopathy was sneered at by the medical establishment

I think the view from science is that the jury is out on osteopathy and acupuncture, since clinical studies on both are (to cut a long story short) inconclusive. On homeopathy, on the other hand, the jury is back with its verdict. Apparently there are still people around who believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't mean their views need to be taken seriously.

[Pabmusic]

I don't think anyone knows why the placebo effect works, so far it has eluded scientific explanation...

Well, we do know a lot about it (psychologists and neurologists are the main ones studying how it works). As I've already posted on this thread, people show improvement just by taking part in a trial - even when they know they are the ones taking a placebo.

[Richard Barrett]

people show improvement just by taking part in a trial - even when they know they are the ones taking a placebo.

Apropos: a few weeks ago I went to the doctor because I was worried about a persistent cough. She did all the usual examinations and told me she couldn't find anything wrong. I noticed on the way home that the tickle in my throat had gone, and indeed the cough had completely ceased. (But maybe she surreptitiously slipped me a homeopathic globule or two when I wasn't paying attention.)

[P. G. Tipps]

I think the view from science is that the jury is out on osteopathy and acupuncture, since clinical studies on both are (to cut a long story short) inconclusive. On homeopathy, on the other hand, the jury is back with its verdict. Apparently there are still people around who believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't mean their views need to be taken seriously.

I certainly agree with the last sentence.

Of course as far as flat-earthers (of all kinds) are concerned exactly the same might well apply in reverse!

[umslopogaas]

But according to all the previous posts on this thread, she could have slipped you any number of homoeopathic globules and they would not have had any effect on your cough. I suspect you just felt better because the doctor told you there was nothing wrong. After all, you cant expect to improve from the administration of a dose of nothing, if you dont even know it has been administered. Can you? I get a bit confused by this stuff, if you are being administered a dose of nothing, how do you know its been administered, and if you feel better for the supposed administration, is that because of the dose you havent had or did you just get better anyway?

That's about as lucid as I can get at this time of night, I think I'll just go and pour another vodka, at least it isnt homoeopathic.

[teamsaint]

No. Apart from what MrGG says, there is no known mechanism for water molecules retaining a "memory" of some other molecules they might once have come into contact with. (At the time when homeopathy was invented this might have been a plausible theory.) Moreover, as I keep saying, whether or not there's a plausible scientific explanation, which there isn't, homeopathy has been proved "beyond reasonable doubt" not to work.

Teamsaint, there may be doctors who believe in homeopathy, you've met some and so have I, but my question was about scientists, that is to say people involved in actual scientific research, which most doctors of course aren't.

That is a fair point, but I am really working on the assumption that Medical Doctors have a scientific background, and ought to have the skills and interest to look into what they are prescribing or advocating patients use. I don't suppose that does always happen, with conventional medicine.

Somebody Like Peter Fisher ought to have those skills to look at some of the science and make a valid judgement, or ask some pertinent questions of the scientists.

One reason that I think it is important that the business of homeopathy is properly debated, is that it really has quite a strong hold on a decent sized section of the population. .
This study demonstrates this.

http://www.nhslothian.scot.nhs.uk/OurOrganisation/Consultations/Past/Homeopathy/Documents/NHSLothianHomeopathyConsultationReport.pdf

if 15 %plus of the population are actively in favour of this treatment, there is work to be done in any one of several directions, whether it is a fraud , whether or not it works better than other placebo type practices. It isn't just going to go away, not least because the private sector will surely ( and already does) fill the NHS void,and in an uncontrolled and a potentially more exploitive manner.
I don't think just saying " its nonsense" amounts to the level of debate that is required.
But that is just my opinion.

Edit: anther part of this debate that might need expanding is why so many people turn to homeopathy, when we have such a relatively well funded free NHS service.

[Richard Barrett]

I suspect you just felt better because the doctor told you there was nothing wrong.

Exactly. (The bit about the globules was a joke, in case anyone's wondering.)

[Richard Barrett]

it really has quite a strong hold on a decent sized section of the population

But so (especially in the USA, where more scientific research goes on than anywhere else) does creationism, and so do many superstitions. If people knew more about the nature and scope of science their opinions would be based on better grounds.

[teamsaint]

But so (especially in the USA, where more scientific research goes on than anywhere else) does creationism, and so do many superstitions. If people knew more about the nature and scope of science their opinions would be based on better grounds.

I'm not suggesting that a better understanding of , and discussion of (the) science wouldn't be a good thing.

One important aspect of the hold on the public that homeopathy has , is that a reasonably large number of medical professionals appear to be prepared to at least go along with it.

[P. G. Tipps]

That's about as lucid as I can get at this time of night, I think I'll just go and pour another vodka, at least it isnt homoeopathic.

Well, homoeopathic or not, if it makes you feel better it obviously works despite what the round-earthers and scientists might claim to the contrary ... ?