If only the debate were really over

[MrGongGong]

Sorry, that is simply not true.

I think you might find this useful

http://study.com/articles/5_Resources_for_Free_Reading_and_Adult_Literacy_Education_Online.html

Did you not read what Mr Hinton wrote ?

[P. G. Tipps]

I think you might find this useful

http://study.com/articles/5_Resources_for_Free_Reading_and_Adult_Literacy_Education_Online.html

Did you not read what Mr Hinton wrote ?

Well, it's all there for anyone to read and take at literal face-value.

Unless it contains some sort of mysterious, unconvential code of which maybe only you are aware ... ?

[MrGongGong]

unless it contains some sort of mysterious, unconvential code of which maybe only you are aware ... ?

the earth goes round the sun

[french frank]

the more drastic the beneficial effect sought the more likely that there will be serious side-effects.

That sounds so wise it ought to be true. Unfortunately, statistics aren't a lot of comfort when it isn't.

[P. G. Tipps]

That sounds so wise it ought to be true. Unfortunately, statistics aren't a lot of comfort when it isn't.

Exactly!

[french frank]

whereas only mistaken prescription/use or patient misuse of "conventional" ditto might run the risk of ill effect

We know whereof we speak, of course ...

[P. G. Tipps]

the earth goes round the sun

Well that's a pretty safe and conservative belief these days, Mr GongGong ...

And I thought you were the very one here courageous enough to challenge established wisdom.. ?

[ahinton]

Sorry, that is simply not true. There are plenty of cases where conventional routine operations have resulted in the death of the patient. Others have died due to serious side-effects of medication. There is no great secret about this, just check any 'covering' leaflet in any medicine bottle or the form of acceptance you have to sign before any operation!

The risks may be small but they remain nonetheless!

Of couse they do! Did I suggest otherwise?

But it's still not "a plague on both your houses" because the practice and conduct of conventional medicine going drastically awry, though always a risk, is not the norm whereas the risk for a seriously ill patient having been persuaded to rely upon homœopathy is immense.

The warnings on medicine bottles, packets and the rest is indeed an important issue, but that's just the law-fearing compliance industry at work; "all medicines will klll you unless they don't", as in (including homœopathic ones, if it comes to that, except that these probably don't usually come with their labels plastered with such copious caveats)...

[ahinton]

We know whereof we speak, of course ...

If you have something more to say behind this, please say it and you'll have at least one pair of listening ears here (I did take due note of what you expressed of your own experiences earlier, by the way)...

[Ed: by ff: I have nothing further to say publicly.]
OK - well, feel free to send a PM (or not, as you wish)...

[MrGongGong]

But it's still not "a plague on both your houses" because the practice and conduct of conventional medicine going drastically awry, though always a risk, is not the norm whereas the risk for a seriously ill patient having been persuaded to rely upon homœopathy is immense.

Exactly
So WHY do folks keep insisting that it's 'harmless' ?

[P. G. Tipps]

Exactly
So WHY do folks keep insisting that it's 'harmless' ?

Certainly not me. I don't claim it works either, as I've never tried any of these treatments.

The only real point is that if some believe in the efficacy of homoeopathic treatments why should others interfere like an interfering, overbearing Nanny?

Also, if the possible "risk factor" is the reason from preventing 'believers' from accessing such treatments exactly the same argument can be made against conventional medicine.

That's all ... really quite easy to understand, l'd have thought ...

[Richard Tarleton]

The only real point is that if others believe in the efficacy of homoeopathic treatments why should others interfere like an interfering, overbearing Nanny?

My objection is to people who say they should be available on the NHS, like the author of the Black Spider Memos.

[Richard Barrett]

My objection is to people who say they should be available on the NHS, like the author of the Black Spider Memos.

That is one thing. Another (which PGT seems not to take into account) is that though they may do no harm in themselves, believing in them as a substitute for scientific medicine will obviously lead to treatable conditions going untreated, which certainly is harmful.

(although if you're saying that the author of the Black Spider Memos ought to be available on the NHS then why not, we pay for him after all)

[teamsaint]

My objection is to people who say they should be available on the NHS, like the author of the Black Spider Memos.

Just to point out that the NHS budget homeopathy is a tiny £4m out of more than £100 Bn. That is 0.004%.

There are some things that I object to being paid for with NHS money that cost a lot more than £4 m, I expect.

And the many people who do believe in it, including sizeable numbers of medical professionals, also pay in their share of tax.

[MrGongGong]

The only real point is that if others believe in the efficacy of homoeopathic treatments why should others interfere like an interfering, overbearing Nanny?

Waste your own money on magic water.
But don't fall into the trap of equating scientific inquiry with magic fairy b*llocks and we really shouldn't encourage these dangerous fantasists.

It would be good for chemists to STOP selling things that don't contain what they have on the label. (I managed to almost sell Beefy a bottle of water with a Glenmorangie label on it once )

I'm reminded of the rather excellent Jon Ronson interview on TV a few years ago about lunar conspiracy.
After endless frame-by-frame analysis of the moving images on the moon, noticing the tiny differences between the still and moving images. After long debate about why the shadows appear to contradict and why there was no dust crater etc etc Jon Ronson asked the group of conspiracy theorists what they thought was the truth?

"It's the Illuminati, they live at the North Pole in caves and come out at night in flying saucers" came the reply

I don't claim it works either, as I've never tried any of these treatments.

How do you know Australia is there ?
I mean, you haven't been there yourself (i'm assuming)