If only the debate were really over

[french frank]

But doctors should't be dealing in snake oil.

I might agree with that - but I want you to state the reasons instead of declaring your statement to be 'not a problem'.

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but have, argumenti causa, chosen to present the opposite one from you.

I think I've answered such arguments as you gave and you aren't addressing my arguments.

Broadly, I think it's medically and financially too insignificant to make the fuss that you make. So I wonder why you think it's such a big deal that you have to keep revisiting it every time you read a new article about it.

[MrGongGong]

I don't revisit it 'every time' I read a new article at all.

I DO think it is significant £4 million is a lot of money to waste on nonsense.

[french frank]

I DO think it is significant £4 million is a lot of money to waste on nonsense.

It's not the money
Its the spurious credibility that's the problem
People die of serious diseases because of this nonsense (Steve Jobs? )

Contradiction here?

[MrGongGong]

Contradiction here?

Maybe
But the money gives spurious credibility (as does the example that teamsaint talks about)

[gradus]

Apologies if anyone has already mentioned the weird facts of physics but it is (apparently) possible for a change affecting a single atom to simultaneously affect an atom elsewhere even if it it is on the other side of the universe (see Prof Jim Al Khalili's website). If I've grasped this correctly (ahem) doesn't it at least admit of the possibility that the changes that it seems extreme dilutions of homeopathic medicines bring about - equivalent to a single atom in the Atlantic (from a Horizon prog on homeopathy a few years back) - may have something more than assertion to support them? As to whether or not homeopathy works, there seem to be plenty of people who believe it does and before anyone says placebo, just how does that work?

[MrGongGong]

Apologies if anyone has already mentioned the weird facts of physics but it is (apparently) possible for a change affecting a single atom to simultaneously affect an atom elsewhere even if it it is on the other side of the universe (see Prof Jim Al Khalili's website). If I've grasped this correctly (ahem) doesn't it at least admit of the possibility that the changes that it seems extreme dilutions of homeopathic medicines bring about - equivalent to a single atom in the Atlantic (from a Horizon prog on homeopathy a few years back) - may have something more than assertion to support them? As to whether or not homeopathy works, there seem to be plenty of people who believe it does and before anyone says placebo, just how does that work?

I think you need an actual atom (or sub atomic particle) for this to work.
I think you will find its a lot less than an atom in the Atlantic

https://www.painscience.com/articles/the-power-of-avogadro-compels-you.php

[Richard Barrett]

If I've grasped this correctly (ahem) doesn't it at least admit of the possibility that the changes that it seems extreme dilutions of homeopathic medicines bring about - equivalent to a single atom in the Atlantic (from a Horizon prog on homeopathy a few years back) - may have something more than assertion to support them?

No. Apart from what MrGG says, there is no known mechanism for water molecules retaining a "memory" of some other molecules they might once have come into contact with. (At the time when homeopathy was invented this might have been a plausible theory.) Moreover, as I keep saying, whether or not there's a plausible scientific explanation, which there isn't, homeopathy has been proved "beyond reasonable doubt" not to work.

Teamsaint, there may be doctors who believe in homeopathy, you've met some and so have I, but my question was about scientists, that is to say people involved in actual scientific research, which most doctors of course aren't.

[Pabmusic]

Apologies if anyone has already mentioned the weird facts of physics but it is (apparently) possible for a change affecting a single atom to simultaneously affect an atom elsewhere even if it it is on the other side of the universe (see Prof Jim Al Khalili's website). If I've grasped this correctly (ahem) doesn't it at least admit of the possibility that the changes that it seems extreme dilutions of homeopathic medicines bring about - equivalent to a single atom in the Atlantic (from a Horizon prog on homeopathy a few years back) - may have something more than assertion to support them? As to whether or not homeopathy works, there seem to be plenty of people who believe it does and before anyone says placebo, just how does that work?

This is a phenomenon from theoretical physics called quantum entanglement.

I paraphrase Chad Ordel in How to Teach Physics to Your Dog (2009 Simon & Schuster). The bit in inverted commas is a quote:

The use of quantum entanglement to explain homeopathy's purported effects is "patent nonsense", as entanglement is a delicate state which rarely lasts longer than a fraction of a second. While entanglement may result in certain aspects of individual subatomic particles acquiring linked quantum states, this does not mean the particles will mirror or duplicate each other, nor cause health-improving transformations.

[P. G. Tipps]

How about we (that's WE) give £4m to encourage the development of exorcism to cast out the evil spirits that are causing disease?

(up pops PG Tipps to tell us that it's a long and noble tradition and we shouldn't make a mockery of it)

Well, needless to say I haven't asked anyone (or have any intention of asking anyone) not to make a mockery of anything, I have merely stated my admittedly useless opinion, like everyone else here.

I do wish you'd keep your other obsession (religion) out of these wholly unconnected topics. Believe (!) it or not, I feel certain the same debate is often held amongst all sorts of folk, whether they have a religious or non-religious view of life.

As stated before I do not use (and have never used) homoeopathic treatments. I am extremely sceptical myself but would never claim that makes me right and others who do not share my opinion wrong. Science does not have all the answers as any scientist will readily admit!

In any case, people have a perfect right to be wrong, not least yourself, Mr GongGong!

[MrGongGong]

these wholly unconnected topics.!

?

One involves a set of beliefs that fly in the face of physics
the other?

[gradus]

Placebo?

[MrGongGong]

Placebo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTvgj2LWjMk&spfreload=10

(I prefer the original myself)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

?

One involves a set of beliefs that fly in the face of physics
the other?

The face of physics as we think we know.

Some scientists reckon there are parallel universes in the same space. Others do not.

[MrGongGong]

The face of physics as we think we know.

Some scientists reckon there are parallel universes in the same space. Others do not.

True
But I would suspect they all would cry out if you dropped an anvil on their foot !

[Frances_iom]

it's just an everday occurance of transsubstatiation - the erstwhile hole now occupied by a homely water molecule complete with its accidents actually retains the substance of the active agent - I'm sure Mr PRT can explain this much more clearly (I gave up on these metaphysics at age of 11 but then I blame my home chemistry kit for giving me a biased understanding of reality!)