Philip Pickett sentenced to 11 years imprisonment

[Stanfordian]

I want to avoid "we" here, and stick to "I", for the reasons Stanf gives in his #193.

I think that there is a world of difference between being "truly unpleasant" and molesting children.

I have to agree there is a big difference, in my view!

I think this is a fascinating thread and I love to read the views of others on this emotive subject. Subject seems the wrong word somehow.

[Bryn]

The section on King in Ian Pace's relevant blog is worth perusing: https://ianpace.wordpress.com/tag/robert-king/ . Just search it for Robert King (no quote marks).

[Serial_Apologist]

Reminds me of a moral maze i encountered when working in a WHS record department as a student c1973. An elderly couple kept bringing concerto LPs to me and asking if the soloist was Jewish. I answered to the best of my ability, not knowing whether this factor was a plus or a minus for them. When they made their purchases they told me that the Jews were trying to take over the world so they wouldn't buy such discs

I contented myself with the reflection that their chances of getting 100% Aryan orchestras were distinctly limited.

There were other tricky questions in WHS without any moral issue. An obvious rock enthusiast asked if we had the 1812 Overture. We had a number of versions from bargain to full price. He peered at them dubiously and asked me, "Which one's the original?" Not an easy question to answer tactfully!

My response would have been: "You could try Kovsky"!

[pastoralguy]

Having discovered what a deeply unpleasant man the late Peter Sellars was has tainted my enjoyment of his films. The only one I won't relinquish is 'The Smallest Show on Earth' which is just wonderful.

[Barbirollians]

It does, but as a reward for their musical talent, which for me does not imply that I condone their behaviour.
A fine distinction perhaps, but one that I happen to be comfortable with (at the risk of horrifying others hereabouts).

Whilst having damaged possibly irreparably the children he abused ? I wouldn’t stamp on one of his CDs let alone buy it .

[LMcD]

Having discovered what a deeply unpleasant man the late Peter Sellars was has tainted my enjoyment of his films. The only one I won't relinquish is 'The Smallest Show on Earth' which is just wonderful.

Any relation to Peter Sellers?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There were other tricky questions in WHS without any moral issue. An obvious rock enthusiast asked if we had the 1812 Overture. We had a number of versions from bargain to full price. He peered at them dubiously and asked me, "Which one's the original?" Not an easy question to answer tactfully!

The original performances had no cannons, as it wasn't practical.

[doversoul1]

OK, I DO see all that from all posters, BUT if a recording is made by such people AND it's seriously good musical work, then how do we react? Do we say:
[a] It 'doesn't exist' or
[b] 'never saw it' or
[c] 'will never buy it'.

The last yes, but the other two?

Do we stop admiring Byron's poetry because he was a serial lecher? Does that invalidate his skill / excellence as a POET?

This point has been made clear whenever the subject came up, usually bringing out Gesualdo: it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we think about great artists of the past. In the case of Robert King, his victims are alive and still suffering. They were the children whose trust King betrayed. If he had an atom of decency and humanity, he should keep himself out of public stage for the sake of his victims.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/01/i-couldnt-deal-with-it-it-tore-me-apart-surviving-child-sexual-abuse

[doversoul1]

I watched the Tony Palmer film on Malcolm Arnold recently, and was struck by the reputation he had as a truly unpleasant man. Not only was such an evaluation attributed to John Drummond, but in the end none of his children (nor, unsurprisingly, his wives) would have much to do with him.

But does that mean that we should be wary about listening to his music? And does the reason people thought he was unpleasant matter?

I think the two are different: Robert King’s victims were children to whom King was in the position of trust which he abused horribly. Family and friends who had unhappy lives are not quite the same ‘victims’.

[MrGongGong]

This point has been made clear whenever the subject came up, usually bringing out Gesualdo: it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we think about great artists of the past. In the case of Robert King, his victims are alive and still suffering. They were the children whose trust King betrayed. If he had an atom of decency and humanity, he should keep himself out of public stage for the sake of his victims.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...d-sexual-abuse

Exactly, well said

This subject always seems to be an invitation for entries for the "Non-sequitur of the day" award

Most people who have been inside for what he did (and many "lesser" offences) have had to change their lives and do something else
it really is no great loss in the grand scheme of things

[Barbirollians]

This point has been made clear whenever the subject came up, usually bringing out Gesualdo: it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we think about great artists of the past. In the case of Robert King, his victims are alive and still suffering. They were the children whose trust King betrayed. If he had an atom of decency and humanity, he should keep himself out of public stage for the sake of his victims.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...d-sexual-abuse

Well said

[Master Jacques]

However, your comments about the legitimacy of your beliefs about the Retrospect Ensemble in respect of what you'd earlier said about their recording strike home - I shall, therefore, copy, not move, the posts to the earlier discussion, so that they are viewable on both Threads. Hail Me!

All hail! Though I rather wish you would get rid of those posts from this thread, because I for one find they're raising my blood pressure to dangerous levels, and I was rather hoping the discussion could have been confined to Bach on record.

We might consider, that as we have at best a mere five degrees of separation from everyone in these islands - whatever their crimes - then in Hamlet's words, "who shall 'scape whipping?" If the benighted musicians of Retrospect/King's Consort are "guilty by association", then every single person on this forum who has bought any records, by anyone at all, ought to be sent to Coventry along with them. Who knows what that third desk of violas gets up to on Friday nights.

Do some music-lovers never listen to a note of Ireland, Wagner or Gesualdo, on moral grounds, I wonder? These stained-glass attitudes seem a long way from the Christian charity celebrated in Bach's Ascension Oratorio. So unless the CD itself is bronzing, I personally doubt whether opinions that the Retrospect recording is "tarnished" have any place on this thread.

[Dave2002]

Whether to play or buy recordings, or attend concerts by convicted sex offenders is very much down to the individual. I can imagine this being a real dilemma for some.

Over the last decade I have attended some really good concerts by performers who have since been outed as offenders - though perhaps not in all cases convicted - yet. I enjoyed the concerts, but I might not have gone had I known, and perhaps more likely in the current climate, the concert promoters would not have scheduled them.

There's not much I can do to reverse my own history.

More problematic is whether to listen to CDs by people who we now believe to have been offenders. In the abstract I can still enjoy them, and it won't benefit those people as the CDs were bought long ago.

[doversoul1]

This has been pointed out by teamsaint and MrGG that there is something unique about King’s case: a section of our society was perfectly happy to place Art over the terrible sufferings of a few children, most likely because of where King came from. This has not been the case for many musicians who committed similar offences.

[teamsaint]

They knew about his offending after the trial. You can't blame them for his behaviour. But do you want to give money to people helping a convicted paedophile become a big star? Retrospect Ensemble remain on my blacklist.

If you look on Sampson's website, "King" appears 47 times on her discography page. Plus her name appears alongside King on recent albums... well after the court case. Also Matthew Halls appeared on a CD of the King's Consort released by Hyperion after the court case:

Handel
PARNASSO IN FESTA
The King’s Consort
Matthew Halls
Label: Hyperion
Release Date: October 2008

Its pretty disappointing that Sampson appears not to have distanced herself from King. As one of the most respected in her field, she surely can’t be short of offers of work, if that was a justification?