Philip Pickett sentenced to 11 years imprisonment

[P. G. Tipps]

Or ITV, or specific music colleges, or particular football clubs.......etc etc etc

Precisely ... not to mention the home itself where the great majority of child sex-abuse cases are to be found.

No institution in the world, whether religious or secular, is wholly exempt from human frailty and even sometimes downright evil.

Finger-pointing at an institution that one already has an intense loathing for is the easiest thing to do in the world, and the sort of smug-ridden 'holier than thou' (sorry!) attitude to which I referred earlier.

[MrGongGong]

Precisely ... not to mention the home itself where the great majority of child sex-abuse cases are to be found.

No institution in the world, whether religious or secular, is wholly exempt from human frailty and even sometimes downright evil.

Finger-pointing at an institution that one already has an intense loathing for is the easiest thing to do in the world, and the sort of smug-ridden 'holier than thou' (sorry!) attitude to which I referred earlier.

the basement is closed matey

[doversoul1]

I suspect that we will ultimately treat their musical legacy as we treat those of great Composers. There was a time when I found it difficult to listen to Aaron Copeland after hearing stories of his sexually predatory legacy. I knew Wagner's music before I learned of his odious Philosophical views, and ditto for Liszt.
Chopin, Beethoven and other greats had views that would not pass a political correctness muster.
Caravaggio is one of my favorite Painters, despite his personal conduct being more in line withthat of a a contemporary Gang Banger .
Ultimately I forget thiese things and admire these men for their Creative Art.
For reasons I cannot explain, I feel less inclined to cut some slack for a "re-creative Artist" i.e. a Performer but not a Composer such as Pickett or King or Gendron. There is no logical reason to do so, particularly with something as abhorent as Pedophilia.
I suppose one solution is to have continous monitoring of interactions between adults and minors. Web cams in every practice and dorm room. It sounds Orwellian, but if used to protect people, as opposed to controlling them, perhaps justifiable?

I think there is a fundamental difference between the crimes of great artists in the past and that of living musicians (or any artists). The victims of the latter are still alive and by allowing the perpetrators to return to their profession and appreciating them as if nothing had happened, we are telling those whose childhood was irretrievably destroyed, that their lives are less worthwhile (don't count, even) than music to our society. If we try putting ourselves into the place of the parent or a grandparent of a victim, we may see how this feels.

[teamsaint]

The Roman Catholic church and the BBC, to name but two, have a great deal to answer for.

But to focus too closely on them is to risk misssing issues elsewhere, such as the C of E, private schools, music college, football clubs, etc etc.

Its a fine balance.

i agree with Doversoul's point in # 48.

[Tony Halstead]

i agree with Doversoul's point in # 48.

and so do I.

[Richard Tarleton]

I think there is a fundamental difference between the crimes of great artists in the past and that of living musicians (or any artists).

Indeed - I'm surprised noone's mentioned Gesualdo yet - he only did what was positively expected of a Neapolitan nobleman in the circs. (His north Italian equivalent would only have been expected to kill his wife ).

[Darkbloom]

I think there is a fundamental difference between the crimes of great artists in the past and that of living musicians (or any artists). The victims of the latter are still alive and by allowing the perpetrators to return to their profession and appreciating them as if nothing had happened, we are telling those whose childhood was irretrievably destroyed, that their lives are less worthwhile (don't count, even) than music to our society. Try putting yourself into the place of the parent of a grandparent of a victim and see how this may feel.

I take the point about the victims still being alive and the need for justice in that respect. But I also think that we have different standards for re-creative artists. They are a part of the particular era they happen to be living in, and can't be separated from it. Creative artists - or at least the ones that have lasted - stand outside of time, and no matter how a performer may traduce them in one way or another, the work is still there to be recreated all over again. It would be unimaginable for a performer like Furtwangler to exist today; I don't think modern audiences and critics could accept his vagaries of interpretation. Likewise, a lot of great instrumentalists of the past might have a hard time getting a hearing today, with all the high technical finesse on display by lesser artists. I wouldn't want to say that someone is 'only' a performer, because you can't have one without the other, but I think we are all aware that they are closer to us and able to be judged accordingly. But, however abhorrent Wagner's views were, for example, it seems slightly silly to censure someone like that who occupies a more rarefied plane. It probably isn't very logical, but I think most people have an instinctive awareness of the difference between the two.

[teamsaint]

I take the point about the victims still being alive and the need for justice in that respect. But I also think that we have different standards for re-creative artists. They are a part of the particular era they happen to be living in, and can't be separated from it. Creative artists - or at least the ones that have lasted - stand outside of time, and no matter how a performer may traduce them in one way or another, the work is still there to be recreated all over again. It would be unimaginable for a performer like Furtwangler to exist today; I don't think modern audiences and critics could accept his vagaries of interpretation. Likewise, a lot of great instrumentalists of the past might have a hard time getting a hearing today, with all the high technical finesse on display by lesser artists. I wouldn't want to say that someone is 'only' a performer, because you can't have one without the other, but I think we are all aware that they are closer to us and able to be judged accordingly. But, however abhorrent Wagner's views were, for example, it seems slightly silly to censure someone like that who occupies a more rarefied plane. It probably isn't very logical, but I think most people have an instinctive awareness of the difference between the two.

The difference between the living and(long) dead is purely practical IMO.


The issue about Wagner, or any other composer., occupying a more rarified plane is indeed illogical and potentially dangerous nonsense.
A performer might easily claim the same thing compared to, say, a supermarket supervisor.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Daniel Barenboeing?

[Darkbloom]

The difference between the living and(long) dead is purely practical IMO.


The issue about Wagner, or any other composer., occupying a more rarified plane is indeed illogical and potentially dangerous nonsense.
A performer might easily claim the same thing compared to, say, a supermarket supervisor.

Totally agree, yet that feeling still persists whether we want it to or not. I doubt that the trial would have been delayed of a supermarket supervisor.

[ahinton]

As I stated earlier, artistic prowess - or being perceived to exist on a more exalted plane than the rest of us - is no more an excuse for the kind of conduct under discussion here than is perceived existence on such a plane any guarantee of exoneration from the commission of such conduct. Was Pickett any good at his work? Was Gendron a great cellist? Was Brewer a fine choral trainer? &. &c.

As an addendum to me response to P.G.Tipps about society's changing attitudes to this kind of behaviour, I should perhaps suggests that one factor here is that more openness pertains today than did half a century ago and communications media makes it far easier to spread information about it and more challenging to cover it up, which is why perpetrators and those who have sought to cover up for their actions have had to come increasingly to rely upon the widespread reluctance on the part of victims to come forward; however, I think that the Andrade case has helped to begin to break down that reluctance, which is as fortunate as it is welcome.

[ahinton]

Totally agree, yet that feeling still persists whether we want it to or not. I doubt that the trial would have been delayed of a supermarket supervisor.

It's just a matter of open-mindedness and education; discovering how Wagner treated a number of people - not least Liszt on occasion - need not make any of us feel queasy about listening to Tristan und Isolde but at the same time listening to Tristan und Isolde not only need not but also should not blind (or deafen!) us to the fact that such music can emerge from a man who behaved as Wagner was on occasion wont to do.

[french frank]

The issue about Wagner, or any other composer., occupying a more rarified plane is indeed illogical and potentially dangerous nonsense.
A performer might easily claim the same thing compared to, say, a supermarket supervisor.

But it isn't for a performer to 'claim' anything. There may be no logic, but it is for the public, and individual members of the public, to 'decide'.

What may be significant is that many of these cases involve relatively old men and are historic. The publicity might well prevent similar cases occurring now. Victims may speak out at once, authorities may be more willing to listen, potential offenders may be discouraged. Yet the evidence would need to be pretty strong for a conviction.

[Darkbloom]

I was trying to imagine a situation where a creative artist today might be given more indulgence for their transgressions than a re-creative one. I can't think of any musical parallel, but there are a couple of well known American comedians who have been accused of all sorts of crimes not unlike those of Pickett. Now, of course these are only allegations, but it is interesting that, although these people have come in for a great deal of criticism, they have also had their defenders. What that says about us I cannot say, but there clearly exists a bias for whatever reason when it comes to 'creatives'.

[teamsaint]

But it isn't for a performer to 'claim' anything. There may be no logic, but it is for the public, and individual members of the public, to 'decide'.

What may be significant is that many of these cases involve relatively old men and are historic. The publicity might well prevent similar cases occurring now. Victims may speak out at once, authorities may be more willing to listen, potential offenders may be discouraged. Yet the evidence would need to be pretty strong for a conviction.

Probably I should have said " Could be claimed for". either way, it's clearly illogical nonsense to apply different standards for different people.