Customer service - what customer service? UK!

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18061

    Customer service - what customer service? UK!

    The trouble with Brits which I've heard from Americans is that we don't complain. We whine, we moan, but we don't complain.
    There's an old joke about a British Airways 747 landing at JFK - you can hear the whining after the engines have been shut off.

    Firstly, there is a difference between complaining and moaning/whinging/whining. Complaining means telling someone who has the power to change things what the problems are, and insisting on getting them fixed. Perhaps the reasons Americans are more successful in this is because 90% of the time problems do get fixed, or they did in the period when we lived there. In the UK we learn that problems are never going to be fixed, so we don't bother, and then moan about it - might make for an "interesting" discussion in the pub.

    This is not always understood by people on either side of the Atlantic. When we lived in the USA some friends came to stay nearby for a conference, and several of these told me about problems in their hotels. One had curtains that didn't work, and another had a fault on the TV. This came up at dinner the first night. The next night the topics came up again, as which point I asked the question "why are you telling these stories again?" This met with surprise by my English friends, but I persisted and asked if either of them had actually mentioned the problems to the hotel staff and the manager. They responded "no, is there any point?" I pointed out that it would be impossible for the staff to fix problems if they weren't informed, and that would be the way to go, but clearly they thought this was an odd thing to do. I think eventually they did ask, and they did get service, but their expectation was that nothing would happen, so they didn't ask very assertively until I mentioned this.

    However, coming the other way, in the UK so much customer service is almost non existent that one can understand the English reticence to pursue things. So many customer service departments just seem to work on the assumption that customers will get bored and give up if refunds, returns, corrections, remedies, compensation are not followed up. Sadly this premise may well be correct. One person in such a department was asked recently "I suppose you get to talk to a lot of people with problems like mine? Must keep you busy." At this point he must have lowered his guard and answered, "Well no, I hardly ever get to speak to people. Most people give up before I have to do anything." What an admission - totally disgraceful.

    I have several on-going cases at present, some of greater importance than others. One is with Amazon, which supplied faulty goods, then asked me to return it for a refund. They provided the refund for the item, and a measly £3.30 for the postage - on an item which cost over £16 to return. Since then they have obfuscated, been confused, generally played around and I've still not had the full return on the carriage charge, which as most round here will realise is against the EU trading and distance selling regulations. The latest twist is that they said I'd sent them proof of my return postage using the "wrong email account" - though they've gone quiet since I sent it back again using the account they wanted. They don't follow up threads - chaotic, non service.

    Other cases are small, though one is huge, and may result in my taking serious legal action against the supplier. I have found Trading Standards to be of only very limited use. Sometimes one can win against poor customer service, but boy, is it time consuming. One almost loses the will to live, which is I think the whole point of customer "service" anyway.

    OK - here I am moaning - but I'm also girding my loins yet again for action. It seems to take a great deal of fortitude to deal with the stone walling which some companies try in order to avoid fulfilling their responsibilities.

    Surely I'm not the only person in the UK who thinks we can do better. A lot better!
  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30652

    #2
    Immediate response on this (because I've looked it up a few times!):

    Good companies (allegedly) consider fair complaints 'free feedback' which helps them to improve their service.

    If you check 'Customers don't complain', you get the various excuses:
    Didn't know where/how to complain
    It was too complicated
    Didn't think anything would be done
    Thought I'd be considered a trouble-maker

    and so on.

    I remember Michael Grade, when chairman of the BBC, saying that the test of good company management was not how many complaints they received, but how they dealt with them. (So far it's been just on 12 years, and still waiting ...!)
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • richardfinegold
      Full Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 7821

      #3
      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      The trouble with Brits which I've heard from Americans is that we don't complain. We whine, we moan, but we don't complain.
      There's an old joke about a British Airways 747 landing at JFK - you can hear the whining after the engines have been shut off.

      Firstly, there is a difference between complaining and moaning/whinging/whining. Complaining means telling someone who has the power to change things what the problems are, and insisting on getting them fixed. Perhaps the reasons Americans are more successful in this is because 90% of the time problems do get fixed, or they did in the period when we lived there. In the UK we learn that problems are never going to be fixed, so we don't bother, and then moan about it - might make for an "interesting" discussion in the pub.

      This is not always understood by people on either side of the Atlantic. When we lived in the USA some friends came to stay nearby for a conference, and several of these told me about problems in their hotels. One had curtains that didn't work, and another had a fault on the TV. This came up at dinner the first night. The next night the topics came up again, as which point I asked the question "why are you telling these stories again?" This met with surprise by my English friends, but I persisted and asked if either of them had actually mentioned the problems to the hotel staff and the manager. They responded "no, is there any point?" I pointed out that it would be impossible for the staff to fix problems if they weren't informed, and that would be the way to go, but clearly they thought this was an odd thing to do. I think eventually they did ask, and they did get service, but their expectation was that nothing would happen, so they didn't ask very assertively until I mentioned this.

      However, coming the other way, in the UK so much customer service is almost non existent that one can understand the English reticence to pursue things. So many customer service departments just seem to work on the assumption that customers will get bored and give up if refunds, returns, corrections, remedies, compensation are not followed up. Sadly this premise may well be correct. One person in such a department was asked recently "I suppose you get to talk to a lot of people with problems like mine? Must keep you busy." At this point he must have lowered his guard and answered, "Well no, I hardly ever get to speak to people. Most people give up before I have to do anything." What an admission - totally disgraceful.

      I have several on-going cases at present, some of greater importance than others. One is with Amazon, which supplied faulty goods, then asked me to return it for a refund. They provided the refund for the item, and a measly £3.30 for the postage - on an item which cost over £16 to return. Since then they have obfuscated, been confused, generally played around and I've still not had the full return on the carriage charge, which as most round here will realise is against the EU trading and distance selling regulations. The latest twist is that they said I'd sent them proof of my return postage using the "wrong email account" - though they've gone quiet since I sent it back again using the account they wanted. They don't follow up threads - chaotic, non service.

      Other cases are small, though one is huge, and may result in my taking serious legal action against the supplier. I have found Trading Standards to be of only very limited use. Sometimes one can win against poor customer service, but boy, is it time consuming. One almost loses the will to live, which is I think the whole point of customer "service" anyway.

      OK - here I am moaning - but I'm also girding my loins yet again for action. It seems to take a great deal of fortitude to deal with the stone walling which some companies try in order to avoid fulfilling their responsibilities.

      Surely I'm not the only person in the UK who thinks we can do better. A lot better!
      OK, as the lone (I think) frequent poster from the States , I need to respond.

      There are plenty of Customer Service issues here in the States and who says we are any more successful at resolving them? The Cable Companies, who also provide Internet and Land based Phone service, have monopolies and provide horrible service. I know people who work for the companies and the stories that they tell are not reassuring. One of them states that her job is to fix up mistakes made by others. They never get any bill right, any change in service, no phone call to resolve an issue is less than 1 hour of a life wasted, and interestingly, the mistakes never seem to be in the3 customer's favor, but always in their favor. If it were sheer incompetence one would expect some of the mistakes to be in the Customer's favor, but no one that I has ever talked to has been so fortunate, which leads me to believe that their mistakes are intentional, structured into their system to generate revenue, and therefore repugnant.
      I also have an outstanding claim with Amazon.
      The bottom line is that when it comes to CS, bigger is worse. A company that has millions of customers is willing to tolerate a certain amount of dissatisfaction. A small neighborhood shop that depends upon word of mouth provides much better service. Regrettably, not many small business owners can0 survive in0 todays climate.

      Comment

      • ardcarp
        Late member
        • Nov 2010
        • 11102

        #4
        Rule 1. Realise that 'Customer Services' Departments are there to bat away complaints, not to do anything about them.
        Rule 2 Letters are treated more seriously than emails
        Rule 3 Talking to a minion in an offshore call-centre is a pointless waste of time
        Rule 4 Go straight to the top and do not be diverted by complaints 'procedures'
        Rule 5 Threaten the press, TV or Radio consumer programmes.
        Rule 6 Don't hold out any hope from an Ombudsman


        Having had our telephone number 'lost' by Talk Talk (actually they make a habit of not releasing your number if you dare to transfer to another supplier) Mrs A. simply spent a few minutes finding the private number of the Chief Executive and shamed him into sorting things out. It's the only way to do it.

        Comment

        • Dave2002
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 18061

          #5
          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
          OK, as the lone (I think) frequent poster from the States , I need to respond.

          ....

          and interestingly, the mistakes never seem to be in the customer's favor, but always in their favor.
          We once employed a solicitor to deal with a house sale/purchase. Of the three parties involved, the removal men clearly did a heck of a lot of work in a very short time. They were not perfect, but they got the job done with not too many disasters. Next was the estate agent - not sure how much work they did. Lastly - the solicitor.

          The charges were seemingly in inverse proportion to obvious effort. The solicitor charged the most, then the estate agent, and lastly the movers, a moderate sized team, who inevitably must have shared out the revenue, and after costs had been deducted and some put back into the company.

          Further, when we looked at the bill from the solicitor, there were a number of errors - I think 7 in total. All of them were in the solicitor's favour. I wrote and pointed this out, and suggested I might take the whole matter up with the Law Society. Almost immediately we were phoned up, and the bill reduced, and a considerably more reasonable and accurate one provided instead. I had pointed out in my letter that if there were some in my favour then it would indicate shoddy work, but at least a degree of fairness, but to have all the errors biased in favour of the "service provider is absolutely unacceptable.

          Sorry to hear that even in the US customer service is not up to scratch.

          Comment

          • Dave2002
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 18061

            #6
            Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
            Rule 1. Realise that 'Customer Services' Departments are there to bat away complaints, not to do anything about them.
            Rule 2 Letters are treated more seriously than emails
            Rule 3 Talking to a minion in an offshore call-centre is a pointless waste of time
            Rule 4 Go straight to the top and do not be diverted by complaints 'procedures'
            Rule 5 Threaten the press, TV or Radio consumer programmes.
            Rule 6 Don't hold out any hope from an Ombudsman


            Having had our telephone number 'lost' by Talk Talk (actually they make a habit of not releasing your number if you dare to transfer to another supplier) Mrs A. simply spent a few minutes finding the private number of the Chief Executive and shamed him into sorting things out. It's the only way to do it.
            Rule 7: Threaten to complain to your MP, or Ministers, even the PM.
            Rule 8: Actually complain to your MP, or Ministers or the PM.

            I have found 7 and 8 effective on occasions.

            Comment

            • decantor
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 521

              #7
              It's not always hopeless. A week ago, I ordered online an item to help with domestic repairs. It worked beautifully for ten applications, but broke on the eleventh - it should have been good for a thousand. I emailed a complaint to the supplier, adding that I could not return the item as it would not fit in its box in its broken state, and that I was prepared to buy another if they did not uphold my complaint. In eighteen hours I had a reply, informing me that a replacement was on its way free of charge, and that I did not need to return the broken item. I have to admit this was easy for them: the device cost only a tenner. But I still approve of their attitude, which I'd deliberately tested with my offer to repurchase.

              Perhaps I'm just lucky. I've also had good - well, fair - outcomes from my bank, from BT, from eBay, and from my health insurers..... without ever losing my temper!

              There is no good news about solicitors, of course. I've learned it's best to overestimate the fees and then budget for quadruple the resultant figure. Hopeless.

              Comment

              • Dave2002
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 18061

                #8
                decantor

                Not quite solicitors, but ....

                As I can recall there was a joke about lawyers in the US, which went something like this:

                "How can you tell the difference between a dead lawyer and a dead skunk on a road?"

                ...


                ...


                ..

                "You can see the skid marks before the skunk."



                Bit tasteless perhaps, but some people don't like lawyers.

                Comment

                • decantor
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 521

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                  Bit tasteless perhaps, but some people don't like lawyers.
                  Dave2002, to be honest, nobody likes lawyers, and there are many such jokes as the one you tell.

                  Personally, I like to take a more generous line. There's very little wrong with lawyers that a few vigorous water-boarding sessions wouldn't put right.

                  Comment

                  • Nick Armstrong
                    Host
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 26601

                    #10
                    Yeah yeah let's get 'em all out of the way at once...


                    Q: Why did God invent lawyers?
                    A: So that real estate agents would have someone to look down on.

                    Q: What's the difference between a jellyfish and a lawyer?
                    A: One's a spineless, poisonous blob. The other is a form of sea life.

                    Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a trampoline?
                    A: You take off your shoes before you jump on a trampoline.

                    Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech?
                    A: After you die, a leech stops sucking your blood.

                    Q: How are an apple and a lawyer alike?
                    A: They both look good hanging from a tree.

                    Q: How does a lawyer sleep?
                    A: First he lies on one side, then he lies on the other.

                    Q: What's the definition of a crying shame?
                    A: When a bus full of lawyers goes off a cliff with a spare seat.

                    Q: What do you call 25 attorneys buried up to their chins in cement?
                    A: Not enough cement.

                    Q: What's brown and looks really good on a lawyer?
                    A: A Doberman.

                    Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute?
                    A: A prostitute will stop screwing you when you're dead.

                    Q: What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer?
                    A: One is a blood-sucking parasite, the other is an insect.

                    Q: Why did God make snakes just before lawyers?
                    A: To practice.

                    Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a herd of buffalo?
                    A: The lawyer charges more.

                    Q: Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients?
                    A: To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service.

                    Q: Why did New Jersey get all the toxic waste and California all the lawyers?
                    A: New Jersey got to pick first.

                    Q: What's the difference between a female lawyer and a pitbull?
                    A: Lipstick.

                    Q: What do you call 5000 dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
                    A: A good start!

                    Q: Why won't sharks attack lawyers?
                    A: Professional courtesy.

                    Q: What do have when a lawyer is buried up to his neck in sand?
                    A: Not enough sand.

                    Q: Do you know how to save a drowning lawyer?
                    A: Take your foot off his head.

                    Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of manure?
                    A: The bucket.

                    Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a rooster?
                    A: When a rooster wakes up in the morning, its primal urge is to cluck defiance.

                    Q: If you see a lawyer on a bicycle, why don't you swerve to hit him?
                    A: It might be your bicycle.


                    Actually my favourite is:


                    Q: What can a goose do, a duck can't, and a lawyer should?
                    A: Stick his bill up his ****.
                    "...the isle is full of noises,
                    Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                    Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                    Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                    Comment

                    • vinteuil
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 13065

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                      Yeah yeah let's get 'em all out of the way at once...
                      I think Caliban's quotes are too American, too obvious.

                      I prefer Johnson :

                      "he did not care to speak ill of any man behind his back, but he believed the gentleman was an attorney."

                      Comment

                      • Nick Armstrong
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 26601

                        #12
                        "...the isle is full of noises,
                        Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                        Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                        Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                        Comment

                        • Nick Armstrong
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 26601

                          #13
                          Not sure this is the way forward when making a customer complaint... or when responding....

                          The actress who was former landlady of the Rovers Return engaging today on Twitter with Virgin Trains (and Twitterers Lee, Mark, Shannon & Tony joining in the fun):




                          Denise Welch‏@RealDeniseWelch·3 hours ago
                          @VirginTrains Hi. After my £413 trip with no meal or hot drinks, Im travelling 2nd class on the 2.11 Wilmslow to Euston. An upgrade?

                          ‏Virgin Trains‏@VirginTrains·3 hours ago
                          @RealDeniseWelch Good to have you onboard Denise, but afraid not.

                          Denise Welch‏@RealDeniseWelch·2 hours ago
                          @VirginTrains May I ask why when as a very regular traveller I spent £413 and got not even a hot coffee??

                          Virgin Trains‏@VirginTrains·2 hours ago
                          @RealDeniseWelch Are you referring to the time we offered you a bottle of champagne?

                          Lee‏@stepz 2 hours ago
                          @VirginTrains @RealDeniseWelch oops :/

                          Mark Wood‏@ruggerlad·2 hours ago
                          “@VirginTrains: @RealDeniseWelch Are you referring to the time we offered you a bottle of champagne? ” #genius

                          shannon‏@tellaliltruth·1 hour ago
                          @VirginTrains @RealDeniseWelch denise doesn't drink

                          Denise Welch‏@RealDeniseWelch·7 minutes ago
                          @VirginTrains I don't drink alcohol and it was a quarter bottle of Prosecco!!

                          Tony Blaney‏@Tonyblaney·2 minutes ago
                          @VirginTrains @RealDeniseWelch how nice of #virgintrains to offer recovering alcoholic prosecco... #coffeewillsuffice



                          Last edited by Nick Armstrong; 04-02-15, 16:52.
                          "...the isle is full of noises,
                          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
                          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
                          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

                          Comment

                          • ahinton
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 16123

                            #14
                            Tales of customer disservice must be legion and I have a few from experience with none of which I will bore the board save to say that if you really want a classic case of how not to handle customer complaints then one of the most competitive contenders must be Dell UK. As I said, I won't bore anyone with the details on one I'm enmeshed in now, other than that it took a week for its Customer Relations department not to provide me with an email address to which I could escalate the complaint that they'd done everything not to deal with and to advise instead that I'd need to write to Dell UK Head Office via "ordinary" mail to do this. This from a company whose principal business is computers and computer service! I've done it, by signed for first class service and asked that whoever assumes responsibility (responsibility? Dell?) for it contacts me pronto via email so that I can reply, attaching the entire complaint file.

                            By the time they've finally dealt with this (if indeed they do), they'll have to compensate me with a train and possibly also a virgin as well as a bottle of bubbly!...

                            Comment

                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 18061

                              #15
                              Engineer and lawyers (for Caliban)

                              An engineer dies and goes up to the pearly gates. At the gates St Peter meets him, and looks him up in his book. “Sorry, you'll have to go down, there's no room here and I can't find you in my book”, he says, so our engineer friend goes down.

                              “Gosh, it's hot in here” he says to Satan. You need air conditioning. So Satan gets him some tools and materials, and in next to no time the air conditioning is working. Next, the engineer decides that it's a pain having to go up and down to the pits, so installs a lift and some escalators. In a while he decides to put in internet and a phone network, and generally he is really improving the place, with all sorts of new things and inventions, and general modifications. The place becomes really rather luxurious.

                              After a while him upstairs gets to hear about this, and manages to get hold of a mobile phone, and rings up Satan.

                              “Hi – I hear you've got one of my people – he was sent down to you by mistake.”

                              “Mmm” says the devil - “yes he's doing a great job down here.”

                              “Well, be a good chap and send him up – we need him here.”

                              “Shalln't” says the devil.

                              The tone changes, “I'll sue you, I'm off to see a lawyer.”

                              “And where do you think you'll find one of these? Byee!”

                              Comment

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