Waterloo, 18 June 1815

[aeolium]

Returning to the what-if mentioned upthread, I am still unconvinced that a Napoleonic victory at Waterloo would have done more than simply delay the reckoning. He and his allies had after all been defeated in Russia and Spain, and Murat had recently been vanquished by the Austrians in Italy at the Battle of Tolentino. The British had full command of the sea, and the French military would still have suffered under a huge numerical disadvantage on land. So perhaps the best Napoleon could have hoped for was a Pyrrhic victory, even had he avoided defeat.

[Ferretfancy]

Ah, yes. Somehow I never think of Wellington as being in the rank of those other figures, though he did receive a state funeral. Wasn't he saved by Blücher's Prussians at Waterloo?

They gave Wellington a glorious funeral, it took ten men to carry the beer.

[Richard Tarleton]

Returning to the what-if mentioned upthread, I am still unconvinced that a Napoleonic victory at Waterloo would have done more than simply delay the reckoning. He and his allies had after all been defeated in Russia and Spain, and Murat had recently been vanquished by the Austrians in Italy at the Battle of Tolentino. The British had full command of the sea, and the French military would still have suffered under a huge numerical disadvantage on land. So perhaps the best Napoleon could have hoped for was a Pyrrhic victory, even had he avoided defeat.

Yes. There is always the chance that this what-if gives rise to others - would a French victory have altered the dynamic to the extent of enabling Napoleon to at least negotiate with the other allies? Probably not. I think his last-ditch hope was to be allowed to go on ruling in France, wasn't it?

At least his defeat at Waterloo spared another set of poor bloody peasantry having their lives wrecked by the passage of yet more armies of 500,000 moving over their patch, not to mention fighting on it.

And the French find it hard enough to accept the idea that Waterloo was a defeat. Just try to imagine how insufferable they'd be if Napoleon really had won But then it would have been just another battle....

[Alain Maréchal]

At least his defeat at Waterloo spared another set of poor bloody peasantry having their lives wrecked by the passage of yet more armies of 500,000 moving over their patch, not to mention fighting on it.

When I leaned history at school, Waterloo was taught as one more example of nations choosing to fight their battles on somebody else's land, often ours.

[Anna]

A bit off topic, and only for those in London, but I thought I'd mention it. Exhibition at The British Museum Bonaparte & The British, Prints & Propaganda, which of course covers Waterloo. From 5th Feb to 16th August. The Times has double page spread on it today.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_on/exhibitions/bonaparte_and_the_british.aspx

[mercia]

part of the KGL or Kings German Legion, who fought at Waterloo, were stationed in Bexhill. Apparently the soldiers got on well with the local population and some decided to settle there after the legion was disbanded, started families and are buried there. The story goes that a special 'German school' was set up to educate their children, which continued to exist into the 1930s, such that ambassador Ribbentrop sent his daughter there and the school uniform incorporated a swastika badge, which is a strange thought to conjure with. Actually I find it difficult to believe that such an establishment could have existed during WW1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_German_Legion

[Richard Tarleton]

Fascinating, mercs!

Plenty about the KGL in The Longest Afternoon by Brendan Simms, the story of Major Baring and the KGL's defence of La Haye Sainte. They finally had to abandon it in late afternoon when they ran out of ammo - no provision had been made for resupplying them, plus the Pioneers had not prepared the defences as they'd been sent to Hougoumont the night before to fortify that, plus the barn doors and other potentially defensive material had been chopped up for firewood.... Odd that, about the pioneers, as La Haye Sainte in the centre of the line was vital, arguably more so than Hougoumont.....

And poor Colonel Ompteda was killed in a suicidal charge ordered by the idiot Prince of Orange.....

They were a fine and heroic unit.

[mercia]

many thanks RT

[Nick Armstrong]

Interesting report on BBC TV lunchtime news on archaeology near Hougoumont farm. I didn't know there were trees still alive around there bearing musket ball holes from the battle...

[Anna]

Apparently the soldiers got on well with the local population and some decided to settle there after the legion was disbanded, started families and are buried there. The story goes that a special 'German school' was set up to educate their children, which continued to exist into the 1930s, such that ambassador Ribbentrop sent his daughter there and the school uniform incorporated a swastika badge, which is a strange thought to conjure with. Actually I find it difficult to believe that such an establishment could have existed during WW1.

And it seems Bexhill Museum recently had a Q&A evening on WW1 and Bexhill. This the answer to one question regarding the aftermath and commemoration:

In fact, the town didn't really want to remember the war. Many Bexhill residents had a German heritage and in the Edwardian resorts such as this one would often find Germans bands playing. The Bexhill hotels also had many German and French workers and they had a German mayor. There was also a German school where the Kaiser's nephew attended in 1914. The Kaiser's sisters were even visiting the resort in 1914. The war was regarded as a terrible inconvenience that interfered with the holiday season. It was clearly not a conventional town regarding attitudes towards the First World War

[mercia]

many thanks Anna - fascinating !

[Richard Tarleton]

Indeed, nice item Cali. There was the Lion Mound in the background - as Wellington said, "They've ruined my battlefield"

The battle for Hougoumont was part of Napoleon's undoing. As Mark Adkin says in the Waterloo Companion, "Napoleon never intended to get bogged down in Hougoumont. He had no wish to see 23% of his infantry dragged into a costly struggle for an objective that was almost irrelevant to the overall plan" [which was to smash through Wellington's centre]. Instead of a mere diversionary tactic aimed at tempting Wellington to weaken his centre, Napoleon's not-very-bright brother Jerome committed his entire division - ultimately 24 battalions - in a series of failed attacks over the whole afternoon to take the chateau on Wellington's right flank, which he had no orders to do.

[BBMmk2]

Interesting report on BBC TV lunchtime news on archaeology near Hougoumont farm. I didn't know there were trees still alive around there bearing musket ball holes from the battle...

That would certainly be most interesting to see!

[Nick Armstrong]

Indeed, nice item Cali. There was the Lion Mound in the background - as Wellington said, "They've ruined my battlefield"

The battle for Hougoumont was part of Napoleon's undoing.....

That would certainly be most interesting to see!

Yes I've visited the various locations a couple of times. Wish I'd known about the trees. I find Hougoumont and La Haye Sainte among the most potent names in history....

... and I remain a fan of Sergei Bondarchuk's film, with an amazing Rod Steiger as Napoleon -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_(1970_film)

Oh yes - one of the epics I went to as a lad in the Odeon, (in the days when there was a glossy printed programme for that sort of fillum - I still have the Waterloo one somewhere. I recall being very pleased with myself spotting that in one of the production stills, the Russian extra playing one of the corpses had forgotten to remove his very 20th century wristwatch....)

Steiger was absolutely tremendous, and remained a hero of mine.

[Anna]

Article in yesterday’s Telegraph about Hougoumont musket balls:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/11571467/Musket-balls-discovered-from-first-shots-fired-at-Battle-of-Waterloo.html

And website about Le Project Hougoumont, if link works then scroll down and read full article plus lots more info for you Waterloo enthusiasts inc video by Peter Snow!

http://www.projecthougoumont.com/history.html