Norman Lebrecht

[Tony Halstead]

Has anyone else spotted this, posted on 'Standpoint' last month?:

"Ardent listeners take their cue from the professionals. Eavesdrop on the crowd leaving the opera house after a magnificent performance and you'll hear less talk of the vocal glories than of the fluffed second-act entry in the woodwinds.
BBC Radio 3 put up an online message board at the dawn of the internet. It was shut down after a daily deluge of abuse aimed at practically every presenter and performer on the network. The silenced carpers promptly started an independent forum, Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) — a less friendly bunch of people you will struggle to find this side of the Islamic State. A classical writer commented the other day that when he posts something on a trainspotters' site everyone is grateful and supportive. When he posts on a classical forum he receives nothing but contradiction, complaints and malice."

The URL is

http://standpointmag.co.uk/music-october-14-malice-musicians-norman-lebrecht-kate-bush

There were no follow-up comments...

[Dave2002]

Go on, sue for libel

Sorry - should have been slander, I think. The topicality has got to me!

i guess we should just ignore such ramblings, or maybe ask him to amend or take it down.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It reinforces the idea that some critics are failed musicians, full of envy.

[ardcarp]

The silenced carpers promptly started an independent forum, Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) — a less friendly bunch of people you will struggle to find this side of the Islamic State. A classical writer commented the other day that when he posts something on a trainspotters' site everyone is grateful and supportive. When he posts on a classical forum he receives nothing but contradiction, complaints and malice."

....Lebrecht being noted for his moderate, uncontroversial views about everything.

[Stanfordian]

Has anyone else spotted this, posted on 'Standpoint' last month?:

"Ardent listeners take their cue from the professionals. Eavesdrop on the crowd leaving the opera house after a magnificent performance and you'll hear less talk of the vocal glories than of the fluffed second-act entry in the woodwinds.
BBC Radio 3 put up an online message board at the dawn of the internet. It was shut down after a daily deluge of abuse aimed at practically every presenter and performer on the network. The silenced carpers promptly started an independent forum, Friends of Radio 3 (FoR3) — a less friendly bunch of people you will struggle to find this side of the Islamic State. A classical writer commented the other day that when he posts something on a trainspotters' site everyone is grateful and supportive. When he posts on a classical forum he receives nothing but contradiction, complaints and malice."

The URL is

http://standpointmag.co.uk/music-october-14-malice-musicians-norman-lebrecht-kate-bush

There were no follow-up comments...

I suppose the Friends of Radio 3 forum can be foreboding place for newcomer. When I first started posting I got a rather nasty private message from an very odd boarder. It really unsettled me before I implied that I would post his message on the site and that nipped it in the bud. For the last couple of years I have had no problem at all. But like anywhere there will be bullies around. The vast majority of the contributers here are great and supportive too.

[salymap]

Interesting stuff.

GBS [Corno di bassetto] said that years ago.

[MrGongGong]

Teachers are musicians who couldn't make it on stage. Orchestras are populated with failed soloists.

Who on earth lets him out of bed?

I love this one

Painters, writers, even actors, make some show of generosity to colleagues. Musicians do not

Utter B*llocks

[Roehre]

I suppose the Friends of Radio 3 forum can be foreboding place for newcomer. When I first started posting I got a rather nasty private message from an very odd boarder. It really unsettled me borefore I implied that I would post his message on the site and that nipped it in the bud. For the last couple of years I have had no problem at all. But like anywhere there will be bullies around. The vast majority of the contributers here are great and supportive too.

Well put Stanfordian. A point of view and an experience which I share too.

[french frank]

Thanks, guys. I think this may be bitterness because I suggested on his blog that when he was praising Radio 3 he ought to declare an interest - that he shortly had a new series coming up on the station. He posted it, but only to rage that there was no need for him to declare an interest: 'Everyone knew' that he did work for Radio 3 ...

Time was when he referred to us as 'wonderfully alert' though I think he did once suggest that we had a wax doll of Roger Wright and stuck pins in it. And this is the man who described the incoming controller as the 'Arts Council loser'.

[french frank]

I suppose the Friends of Radio 3 forum can be foreboding place for newcomer. When I first started posting I got a rather nasty private message from an very odd boarder. It really unsettled me borefore I implied that I would post his message on the site and that nipped it in the bud. For the last couple of years I have had no problem at all. But like anywhere there will be bullies around. The vast majority of the contributers here are great and supportive too.

Thanks, Stanfordian and Roehre. That is a problem with the internet. Lebrecht gets his facts slightly wrong - for once . FoR3 had already been in existence for seven years when the BBC axed their messageboards. We asked people if they would like us to start up a forum for them (not for FoR3) on our existing website. It is NOT the FoR3 forum - it is a public forum to which a small number of FoR3 supporters contribute. And we are very happy to have had Radio 3 presenters contributing regularly.

Interesting to learn that, like many others - friends and foes - Mr Lebrecht 'lurks' around this place. No doubt he'll spot a thread with his name as the title!

[Pabmusic]

This is rather sad. Of course we are all individuals with strong views (why would we post so regularly if we didn't have them?). That can be intimidating to the newcomer. It might have been for me, had I not known that I were always right anyway.

Classical music (whatever that means) and jazz (ditto) attracts rather 'intense' people. So...?

[Despina dello Stagno]

I run a cultural news site, www.slippedisc.com, which attracts 1.2 million monthly readers. Our news is often upbeat.I run a cultural news site, www.slippedisc.com, which attracts 1.2 million monthly readers. I run a cultural news site, www.slippedisc.com, which attracts 1.2 million monthly readers.the responses are mostly not. No sooner do we break a conductor's new job or the record debut of a young singer (I run a cultural news site, www.slippedisc.com, which attracts 1.2 million monthly readers). than musicians and music lovers all over the world dump dollops of fresh dung on their blameless heads.

No field of human activity is so envious of success, or so quick to find fault, as the pursuit of classical music.

Mr Lebrecht is entirely right, and uncontroversial to the point of boredom. I, and I am sure I am not alone,
use websites such as this one solely in order to vent my spleen.
But I do have a set of moral values (perverted, mayhap) and traduce classical musicians for PLEASURE and not for PROFIT.

[gurnemanz]

I suppose the Friends of Radio 3 forum can be foreboding place for newcomer.

I am an amateur enthusiast, well aware that many people on here can speak with more expertise and wider musical experience than I will ever muster. That is what makes the place irresistible for me on a daily basis. I have never found it off-putting and just chip in when I feel I might have something to add.

Lebrecht's site is good for news. He is obviously well-informed and it is a shame he feels the need to resort to such distorted blustering.

[Dave2002]

I suppose the Friends of Radio 3 forum can be foreboding place for newcomer. When I first started posting I got a rather nasty private message from an very odd boarder. It really unsettled me before I implied that I would post his message on the site and that nipped it in the bud. For the last couple of years I have had no problem at all. But like anywhere there will be bullies around. The vast majority of the contributors here are great and supportive too.

When I was trying to get familiar with Wikis I used one of the very early wiki sites - something like this one - but not quite - http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?OnTopic I think at the time it was the original Ward Cunningham site, and it was apparently intended for discussion on mathematics and software. I put something up and a day or so later it was deleted. I repeated this, and the same thing happened. I then noticed who had deleted the text and contacted him, and was then informed that "since your material was 'off-topic' it was deleted" - as per the 'rules', which as a beginner I'd not fully digested. When I remonstrated that this was a rather impolite way to do things I was then told "You'll remember, and you'll not do it again though, will you!" I have remembered, but I think that was a very unfriendly way to run a community. It might have just been one person who managed to give me that impression. I've not been back since.

One other clash was in Wikipedia, where I had/have put in many articles, some of which have now evolved into very long ones over a period of quite a number of years. One of my last articles got scheduled for deletion, by IMO an over zealous "administrator" who claimed that it was "new material" and that it was effectively a research article, and therefore could not be substantiated by citations - following an "improvement" in policy to ensure that everything was cited/referenced. After a few exchanges I gave up, and I've hardly bothered to post any new items ever since. I decided that trying to explain that newish concepts would therefore never get into currency was equivalent to driving my head into a brick wall - pointless.

Despite some faults I still think Wikipedia is a great thing, though this article, which is admittedly a few years old, gives some interesting views - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...edia_chugging/

I really do think that it is possible to be put off by unfriendly users, and many new users have little experience of posting, so to be shot down at first flight is very offputting. Your experience suggests that there are also some people (maybe not regulars) who enjoy intimidating others. I'm glad you got over that. Personally I feel that this is a well regulated and generally friendly board.

[cloughie]

Thanks, Stanfordian and Roehre. That is a problem with the internet. Lebrecht gets his facts slightly wrong - for once . FoR3 had already been in existence for seven years when the BBC axed their messageboards. We asked people if they would like us to start up a forum for them (not for FoR3) on our existing website. It is NOT the FoR3 forum - it is a public forum to which a small number of FoR3 supporters contribute. And we are very happy to have had Radio 3 presenters contributing regularly.

Interesting to learn that, like many others - friends and foes - Mr Lebrecht 'lurks' around this place. No doubt he'll spot a thread with his name as the title!

I've got to say there are times when I feel like the Forum is a club to which I don't really belong and then again there are some very interesting discussions and there is much I've learned. We're all different and music being such a broad church we'll each have our range of interest - I guess mine is as unique as any! I don't think Mr Lebrecht's views on everything musical will be universally agreed or disagreed with.