Choral Evensong service halted by buskers mid-way at Bath Abbey

[teamsaint]

For Clarity, GG, I wasn't suggesting that you were being antagonistic to the church, just suggesting that if people were, this might not be a good tactic.

[MrGongGong]

For Clarity, GG, I wasn't suggesting that you were being antagonistic to the church, just suggesting that if people were, this might not be a good tactic.

Indeed

[french frank]

Some folks jump to conclusions based on "common sense" which used to say the sun went round the earth and other nonsense.

That was never "common sense". It was a conclusion based on the limited information people had and what they thought they were perceiving based on their own experience.

You rather quickly disposed of my quotation about Acoustic Ecology - with a brief 'Yes, some interesting stuff going on" without referring to the substance, what it might mean, what it did not mean, what it implied in this context &c..

[MrGongGong]

That was never "common sense". It was a conclusion based on the limited information people had and what they thought they were perceiving based on their own experience.

You rather quickly disposed of my quotation about Acoustic Ecology - with a brief 'Yes, some interesting stuff going on" without referring to the substance, what it might mean, what it did not mean, what it implied in this context &c..

Sorry boss

I was going to add that there has been considerable debate in the Acoustic Ecology world about whether people fetishise rural or conventionally "beautiful" sound environments. A bit like (and this isn't my field !) the way in which people will run marathons to save snow leopards. tigers and baby seals but don't care at all about insects or other less popular animals. Which might mean that Bees stand less chance of being protected and so on.

There are real problems with noise in many environments, what the writings about this discuss is a much wider contextualisation than one has seen in this debate over the church in Bath (not just in here).

The quote you give (from ?) talks about those who are "marginalized, neglected, and poisoned by socially and ecologically harmful practices" which could refer to both groups of people in this situation.
For some the church is guilty of "socially harmful practices"
For some the itinerant musician (same as it ever was ?) is a socially unacceptable figure (In Japan Shakuhachi players were often thought to be spies) , I think (can't remember when though?) Robert Saxton gave a very interesting talk on the radio a few years ago about "the wondering Jew" that touched on this in a really interesting way.
For some, people should just "grow up" and conform to societal norms.

I suspect that the "common sense" banning of amplified music will backfire when a 60 piece samba band arrives.

[jean]

Maybe part of the "antipathy to the Church" that you detect... is to do with the way that it has been embedded in our society and given undue influence and power ?

I'm sure it is.

But I think some people are too ready to assume that everything the church does - including trying to conduct choral evensong without disturbance - must be motivated by a desire to reclaim the influence it once had.

The people I would be most interested to hear from are those who aren't religious in the least but who value the church's musical traditions and participate in choral worship. There are a few of those posting on this board, but none has contributed to this thread.

[amateur51]

I'm sure it is.

But I think some people are too ready to assume that everything the church does - including trying to conduct choral evensong without disturbance - must be motivated by a desire to reclaim the influence it once had.

The people I would be most interested to hear from are those who aren't religious in the least but who value the church's musical traditions and participate in choral worship. There are a few of those posting on this board, but none has contributed to this thread.

It's at this point that a certain member says something like "No names, no packdrill!"

[jean]

For some the church is guilty of "socially harmful practices"

Such as choral evensong?

For some the itinerant musician (same as it ever was ?) is a socially unacceptable figure

No-one has suggested that here, have they?

For some, people should just "grow up" and conform to societal norms.

The societal norms referred to were about not disturbing others when it could be avoided. Nothing to do with wandering.

[MrGongGong]

Such as choral evensong?

NO

I never suggested anything of the sort at all.

Why are you insisting on being so antagonistic about people who merely ask questions about how things are ?

Or should people just shut up and trust Jesus ?

No-one has suggested that here, have they?

NO

But it's part of culture (NOT just in the UK)

I'll spell this out for you one more time

I'm NOT "against" the church musicians
I'm NOT "against" those who like to go to CE
I'm NOT "for" noisy buskers
I'm NOT "against" noisy buskers

OK ?

[jean]

NO

I never suggested anything of the sort at all.

I'm glad to hear it.

But why bring the church's socially harmful practices into a discussion about choral evensong being disturbed?

Why are you insisting on being so antagonistic about people who merely ask questions about how things are ?

I'm not at all antagonistic to people who ask questions, but I find it a bit wearisome if they won't listen to any answers other than the ones they've thought up themselves.

[french frank]

The quote you give (from ?)

A little hint - highlight a phrase like ' marginalized, negected, and poisoned by socially and ecologically harmful practices ' and drag and drop it into your search engine window :-)

talks about those who are "marginalized, neglected, and poisoned by socially and ecologically harmful practices" which could refer to both groups of people in this situation.

No, I think you are conflating different issues. This situation is a specific one. It's true that Christians are the world's most persecuted people but that is no more relevant to this situation than - in a general way - society's perceived marginalisation &c. of buskers .

[MrGongGong]

A little hint - highlight a phrase like ' marginalized, negected, and poisoned by socially and ecologically harmful practices ' and drag and drop it into your search engine window :-)

I knew that

I thought that R3 Jazz enthusiasts were the worlds most persecuted people

[Serial_Apologist]

The people I would be most interested to hear from are those who aren't religious in the least but who value the church's musical traditions and participate in choral worship. There are a few of those posting on this board, but none has contributed to this thread.

I have!

I am one of those who bemoan the takeover of many if not most denominational services by happy-clappy dilutions of Gospel music. I realise I haven't a leg to stand on, being an agnostic rather disqualifying my pov since if I attend church(es) other than out of architectural interest it is usually only for weddings or funerals, but I was leader of my school choir and sang all the solos of the anthems that had solo passages for treble singers, and some of the stuff we sang was pretty challenging - Tallis, Byrd, Arne, RVW, Kodaly, Howells, Leighton and so on - or so we thought back in the early 1960s!

I hadn't mentioned this up to this point because I did not consider my views on church music germane to the matter in hand.

[jean]

Knowing and appreciating Tallis, Byrd, Arne, RVW, Kodaly, Howells, Leighton and so on as you do, then, you will understand that too much ambient sound when you're listening does not help at all.

So it surprises me a bit that you find agendas in the Abbey's attempts to reach an accommodation with the buskers.

Why not accept what they say at face value?

[ardcarp]

Going off at a tangent, there is often a cacaphonic conflict between bell-ringers and organists. Theoretically they are both (unlike buskers/choirs) under the same management. In practice, they often 'perform' simultaneously, e.g. before services and after weddings. Not so bad in a large cathedral where bells (West and high up) and organs (East and low down) are well separated. But in the average parish church where both are often close to the crossing there seems little point in the poor organist persisting. Anyone recognise this scenario?

[Richard Tarleton]

The people I would be most interested to hear from are those who aren't religious in the least but who value the church's musical traditions and participate in choral worship. There are a few of those posting on this board, but none has contributed to this thread.

The first two of these apply to me, jean. I've been following this thread gloomily. If I may make so bold, Mr GG's contributions fascinating as ever but over-complicate what (to me) is a very simple issue. M. Vinteuil summed it up for me a while back, to the effect that the buskers don't have to be exactly there, doing that, at the same time. There's only one place where choral evensong can take place. The rest is unreasonableness or bloody-mindedness (by the buskers). But no doubt this sounds like over-simplification to some.

The busking in Bath sounds like one of those things - like stag parties in Prague - which have been getting worse for years without my being aware of it.