Choral Evensong service halted by buskers mid-way at Bath Abbey

[MrGongGong]

There comes a point where at least half the 'argument' declines to tackle the opposing arguments and just repeats its own. Not a lot of point in continuing, in my view

I think some people see an "argument" where others see a discussion and exploration.
No one seems really to be interested in the wider cultural aspects of these things, which is a shame because the whole area of Acoustic Ecology and it's relationship to music, acoustic, soundscape studies and sociological concerns is very interesting indeed.

Moral Panic ?

[jean]

I never said anyone should be "dismissed" (your words not mine)

And I didn't say you said anyone should be 'dismissed' - but that their perceptions should be if, being subjective, they conflicted with the objective measurement you think is essential for resolving the issue.

I said that the perception of noise is a MIXTURE
NOT that it was an "objective" thing at all but a MIXTURE of factors

But you aren't prepared to take the stated subjective experience of the Abbey musicians seriously unless it is endorsed by the objective measurements carried out by Prof Cox from Salford University department of acoustics or some equally impressive expert. You think that one part of the mixture can be trumped by the other.

The problem about the "rules" approach is that the folks busking will (understandably IMV) see it as the church deciding what should happen and when.

Not all of them, evidently:

Bath Abbey musical director Peter King called a halt to the choral evensong, as attempts [at] a peaceful service with the abbey’s organ and choir were deemed futile in the face of the musical onslaught from outside. The choral evensong is the most gentle and quiet of the Church of England's regular Sunday services, often with a single voice heard from the choir, and with other periods of silence and prayer.

After the incident, Mr King took to Twitter to complain that the city collectively had to sort out the issue of over-loud buskers – and some buskers sympathised and said the two who carried on playing ‘did not represent’ the majority of street performers.

[jean]

I think some people see an "argument" where others see a discussion and exploration.

I think some people have too narrow a view of what's meant by argument.

[MrGongGong]

Jean
You really do seem to have a problem with comprehension
Most local authorities have noise enforcement that uses db measurements
Many venues have auto cutout systems on PA systems that cut the power when the volume exceeds a certain level
I'm NOT (Thats N.O.T) suggesting that there should be a level set by measurement
but more that people (and this often includes myself!) need to live in the sonic world that we inhabit

I think measurement is useful and NOT the only way to solve problems

I merely mused that it seemed odd to me that no-one seems to have bothered to

1: record inside
or
2: measure the db level

That's all

Perceptions ARE subjective which is one reason why music is so wonderful

Trying to form "an orchestra at a bus queue" will end in failure.
One has to work within the sonic environment that one finds oneself in

Reading Cage is most illuminating

What of the (soon to move!) Birmingham Conservertoire ? It's on a roundabout in the middle of Birmingham
OR TCM in a grade 1 listed building with NO soundproofing
or many other places where musicians have to rehearse and perform?

I just think it's interesting how issues around acoustic space are conducted

(Again) the WFAE folks are very interesting in this respect and the whole area has been a source of much recent debate and research.

Should the performers in the church get more of what they want because they say their gigs are for a higher being ?

I'm not suggesting they should or shouldn't merely that it's an interesting source of discussion involving music, aesthetics, acoustic ecology, power, control, ownership of public space etc etc

It's not simply a case of "we were here first, so we get to choose", if that were the case there wouldn't be bus stops outside Westminster Abbey.
ent
Some comments are interesting, some folks seem to want to have "authorised" buskers, as with all music WHO decides what is "decent" or not ?

It's an interesting thing to muse on

[MrGongGong]

You think that one part of the mixture can be trumped by the other.

You are WRONG

I DON'T think this at all
Many of my colleagues are involved in church music (at least one I know has a Phd in Acoustics)

[french frank]

No one seems really to be interested in the wider cultural aspects of these things, which is a shame because the whole area of Acoustic Ecology and it's relationship to music, acoustic, soundscape studies and sociological concerns is very interesting indeed.

Au contraire, mon frère. It is fascinating and would merit a thread of its own, perhaps on Ideas and Theory. But it doesn't address the immediate situation, any more than posting a Brueghel painting does.

There can hardly have been a more appropriate context for quoting: "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there".

[jean]

What of the (soon to move!) Birmingham Conservertoire ? It's on a roundabout in the middle of Birmingham
OR TCM in a grade 1 listed building with NO soundproofing
or many other places where musicians have to rehearse and perform?

I don't know. But I've never heard of anyone refusing to sympathise with the plight of the musicians involved on the grounds that they were trying to impose their own rules on the population at large, or suggesting that we should be cautious about believing what they said of their experience because the noise levels hadn't been properly measured.

Should the performers in the church get more of what they want because they say their gigs are for a higher being ?

Of course not. Has anyone, anywhere suggested that?

Let's dispense with the straw men, shall we?

[vinteuil]

... many of the things Mr GongGong says are of course interesting.

But he doesn't seem to wish to engage with the basic issue - that this was an unnecessary, easily avoidable, offensive disturbance.

Plenty of room and time in Bath for buskers and evensong. They don't need to collide.

[MrGongGong]

Au contraire, mon frère. It is fascinating and would merit a thread of its own, perhaps on Ideas and Theory. But it doesn't address the immediate situation, any more than posting a Brueghel painting does.

There can hardly have been a more appropriate context for quoting: "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there".

Nothing we folks musing on the internet addresses the situation anyway.
Unless some of "us" are actually personally involved ?

I thought that this was a forum for discussing matters pertaining to music and culture ?

I'm sure the Daily Mail will offer plenty of space for folks who want to rant about the "vagrants" disrupting the peace

[jean]

I'm sure the Daily Mail will offer plenty of space for folks who want to rant about the "vagrants" disrupting the peace

I'll take your word for that - but please tell me what on earth it has to do with discussion anywhere of this particular issue?

[Flosshilde]

... many of the things Mr GongGong says are of course interesting.

But he doesn't seem to wish to engage with the basic issue - that this was an unnecessary, easily avoidable, offensive disturbance.

Plenty of room and time in Bath for buskers and evensong. They don't need to collide.

[MrGongGong]

But he doesn't seem to wish to engage with the basic issue -

Who owns the air ?

[vinteuil]

Who owns the air ?

... that is not the issue here.

[MrGongGong]

... that is not the issue here.

I think it is an important part of it and what many of those involved in the whole acoustic ecology field are engaged with.


OR shall we just do the

"How awful that the service was disrupted"
"Yes, shocking"
"Shouldn't be allowed"
"How terrible for them"
"I'm outraged"
"Me too"
"There should be a law against it"
"Why don't the council put a stop to it"

and so on and so on and so on and so on

[vinteuil]

You don't seem to accept that there is room for both events to occur without the one disturbing the other.

I find your unwillingness to see this baffling - unless it is an intransigence on your part, which I wd find disappointing.