Choral Evensong service halted by buskers mid-way at Bath Abbey

[jean]

Your personal difficulty in comprehending this has no bearing on the fact that they appear to be acting lawfully.

Negotiation might be more fruitful if one party and its online supporters didn't appear to regard the other as vermin.

Excuse me? Has anyone, here or elsewhere, ever given any indication that they regard the buskers as vermin?

(It does seem that for some posters here the clergy are little better I admit, but surely not the Abbey musicians?)

Neither has anyone asked for a complete ban on busking outside the Abbey - only that the buskers not disrupt Abbey services, which occupy quite a small portion of the week after all.

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[jean]

Why would I refer to myself in the third person plural?

Your English comprehension appears to have failed you: I didn't suggest that you did.

My analysis of

And though neither MrGG nor I am exactly busker friendly, they too are musicians earning their crust, and some are very accomplished performers.

went something like "And though neither MrGG nor I am exactly busker friendly, buskers are musicians just like us earning their crust, and some are very accomplished performers".

It is true that when I asked if the Abbey musicians didn't count Mr GG replied "They do count"; but he then added "...there seems to be little (or at best contradictory) evidence", thus neatly ignoring all the evidence of the effect on their music-making that the Abbey choristers have themselves provided.

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[french frank]

And the evidence supporting this assertion?

'Pay for lunch.' 'That's not really why we do it ...' 'Part of your social life ..'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTBwF0JSZ_M

Of course, that isn't every busker in the country, if you want that kind of survey to be undertaken.

How about the choristers? Is singing in the choir their only source of income?

The child choristers may be earning pocket money but there are adult musicians involved too, including full-time posts.

[MrGongGong]

It seems to me that because the activity being disrupted in Bath is religious you think it doesn't matter; if you were trying to conduct a lesson or workshop or whatever & it was disrupted would you be so happy?

I never said it didn't matter because it was "religious" or even that it "didn't matter" at all.
Just that we don't know

It is true that when I asked if the Abbey musicians didn't count Mr GG replied "They do count"; but he then added "...there seems to be little (or at best contradictory) evidence", thus neatly ignoring all the evidence of the effect on their music-making that the Abbey choristers have themselves provided.

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That's not ignoring the "evidence" at all. Merely stating that it was contradictory.

What would be useful would be to have REAL evidence, you know a recording or spl measurement.
Surely the first things one would do if one was subjected to annoying noise would be to

1: Make a recording
and
2: Get a measurement of how loud the sound was.
Neither of which is difficult or requires highly specialised or rare equipment these days.

[MrGongGong]

Hmm, your English comprehension appears to have failed you on this occasion. My message immediately followed one y MrGG and began with "And". I do occasionally drum and sing, and can just about produce a note or two on violin, flute. trumpet and tenor cor. I would not, however, describe myself as a musician, and certainly not one who performs for gain. It was clear enough to MrGG that the "also" referred back to your point re. the remunerated musicians participating in Abbey event. I find it hard to grasp how that link might have escaped you. Why would I refer to myself in the third person plural?

Bryn was in the Scratch Orchestra
In my book that's up there with playing with Coltrane or the Berlin Phil

[Flosshilde]

That's not ignoring the "evidence" at all. Merely stating that it was contradictory.

What would be useful would be to have REAL evidence,

Why is the evidence not 'real' because it's contradictory? The fact that some found it disruptive should be adequate. They can't leave the Abbey & continue their activities elsewhere, as the buskers can.

Why should the buskers take precedence over the Abbey service? It seems to me it's because you approve of their activities but you don't approve of the Abbey's.

[teamsaint]

In normal weeks, there are evening prayer services at the Abbey At 5.30 PM. Normal Abbey services, ( and I suspect rehearsals) don't really coincide with peak busking time, which I guess is approx 10 till 5.

It goes agains the grain for me to defend the big guy against the little guy, but the Abbey's normal activity really needn't impinge too much on buskers activities. Most Bath buskers use sites well away from the Abbey, in places like Milsom Street.
This really doesn't need to be an issue, if both the buskers and the Abbey big wigs use just a modicum of good sense and spirit of compromise.

[MrGongGong]

Why is the evidence not 'real' because it's contradictory? The fact that some found it disruptive should be adequate. They can't leave the Abbey & continue their activities elsewhere, as the buskers can.

By "real" I mean not anecdotes. What some say contradicts what others say.
Measurements and/or recordings ?

Why should the buskers take precedence over the Abbey service? It seems to me it's because you approve of their activities but you don't approve of the Abbey's.

Why are you assuming that?
I never said anyone should "take precedence" and I certainly don't disapprove of folks singing in the Abbey at all, in fact i'm about to compose a piece that includes a cathedral choir.

The fact that some found it disruptive should be adequate

I might find lots of things disruptive (the RAF, next doors dog etc etc ) that's not "adequate" for me to get them to stop (a bit hard with jet aeroplanes, I know, and the Typhoon does have a rather impressive bass)

[french frank]

Why should the buskers take precedence over the Abbey service? It seems to me it's because you approve of their activities but you don't approve of the Abbey's.

That was exactly the issue of principle I was trying to get people to admit to earlier. But no one answered

Team - yes, exactly. Buskers can go anywhere - and judging by the dates mentioned this was the Sunday service, so not exactly a surprise that the large building nearby was holding a service. Whether it was with or without music, disruption would be the same.

What would the exact measurement of the sound level prove, Gongers? How do you demonstrate that below a certain level people will not be disturbed?

[MrGongGong]

What would the exact measurement of the sound level prove, Gongers? How do you demonstrate that below a certain level people will not be disturbed?

It would show whether there is a genuine reason for them to complain.
Some people are disturbed by people sitting next to them in a concert and merely breathing

[doversoul1]

I’ve deleted my last post. TS sums up what some of us have been saying and there really is nothing more to argue about.

[french frank]

What does measuring the EXACT level of the 'noise' tell you about whether people inside the Abbey found it disruptive?

In a sense, it doesn't matter whether there was any music or not, judging from the dates this was a Sunday service, and I don't imagine any congregation would welcome the sound of buskers breaking in on it.

The people involved in this have fixed times and a fixed place when and where they are obliged to perform. Buskers have the entire week and most of every day and could be in any of many places.

[Vox Humana]

What does measuring the EXACT level of the 'noise' tell you about whether people inside the Abbey found it disruptive?

Speaking personally, when I am listening to music, or performing, or simply wishing to sit quietly and ponder, any extraneous music is distracting. Every other musician I know agrees. Volume has nothing to do with it. If it is true that office workers near the abbey had to resort to ear-plugs, then there was clearly a problem, whatever the buskers might think. In any case, it is not as if busking has to take place outside the abbey; Bath is a big place - though no doubt the abbey is one of the more lucrative pitches.

This looks promising.

[MrGongGong]

Speaking personally, when I am listening to music, or performing, or simply wishing to sit quietly and ponder, any extraneous music is distracting. Every other musician I know agrees. Volume has nothing to do with it.

Indeed, this is true for me also.

[MrGongGong]

What does measuring the EXACT level of the 'noise' tell you about whether people inside the Abbey found it disruptive?.

Well, Bath is a city
some people say they heard lots of music
some said they didn't
maybe some measurements would help ?

Thassorl