Choral Evensong service halted by buskers mid-way at Bath Abbey

[MrGongGong]

You don't seem to accept that there is room for both events to occur without the one disturbing the other.

I find your unwillingness to see this baffling - unless it is an intransigence on your part, which I wd find disappointing.

You completely misunderstand what I was saying

I'm sure there is plenty of room for both and i'm sure that they will find room

What WE say or do will have no impact either way

Surely there is room for talking about ideas ?

IN my working life i've been disturbed and interrupted by
Lawnmowers, Buskers, Bells, Alarms, Traffic, Random Choirs, Noisy children and so on
Most of those I can do very little about
What I can do about ALL of them is change my reaction (which is what I understood from Bryn's comment about the Oto gig)

Why should people turn so many things into a "with us or against us" argument ?

I like quiet music
I don't particularly care much for busking
BUT i'm not about to insist that in a city I should be able to be in a public space and be able to listen to Rothko Chapel without hearing the rest of the world.

and wot Cage said

[jean]

Why should people turn so many things into a "with us or against us" argument ?

Oh the irony!

Nobody has done that on this thread more than you!

[Flosshilde]

Nothing we folks musing on the internet addresses the situation anyway.
Unless some of "us" are actually personally involved ?

I thought that this was a forum for discussing matters pertaining to music and culture ?

I'm sure the Daily Mail will offer plenty of space for folks who want to rant about the "vagrants" disrupting the peace

I don't think anyone has been 'ranting'; I don't think anyone has referred to buskers as 'vagrants'; and I thought that this was about music & culture?

I do think that your argument, such as it is, has descended to the 'sling a bit of mud about' level.

[vinteuil]

I'm sure there is plenty of room for both and i'm sure that they will find room

... so we can agree that the buskers should shut up or move elsewhere during abbey services.

IN my working life i've been disturbed and interrupted by
Lawnmowers, Buskers, Bells, Alarms, Traffic, Random Choirs, Noisy children and so on
Most of those I can do very little about

... but here we can do something about it - arrange that the buskers and services do not clash.

[MrGongGong]

Oh the irony!

Nobody has done that on this thread more than you!

I'm not AGAINST the church musicians
or even FOR the buskers
(which I have said countless times but YOU seem to have a problem with understanding)

The person who seems to started all the "battle" was the Rector

I don't think anyone has been 'ranting'; I don't think anyone has referred to buskers as 'vagrants'; and I thought that this was about music & culture?
.

erm

Isn't there some sort of vagrants act that they can be charged with?

... but here we can do something about it - arrange that the buskers and services do not clash.

I'm not sure whether i can do ANYTHING about it at all
I'm a long way from Bath, how do I arrange that ?
but i'll let you know if I plan to visit !

[Flosshilde]

erm

Isn't there some sort of vagrants act that they can be charged with?

which isn't quite the same thing as saying they are vagrants.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree with MrGG to the extent that, if it is the case that the opponents of amplified music in Bath have attitude problems towards the buskers which have nothing to do with their music, but are just using it as an excuse, then decibel readings inside and outside the Abbey, and comparison with such readings from other abbey/church/cathedral precincts similarly affected, would offer some kind of yardstick to determine who is right. Otherwise any agreement by the buskers to stop performing during services could act as an unjustified basis for victory by the other side, with step two getting the buskers removed from the precinct at all times, and step three from the city of Bath altogether. These, as we see in MrGG's link to the Camden case, are signifiers of power relations in the larger picture which should be noted: subjective responses of certain people to certain other peoples, as oposed to music. Anyone who then claims this as a general matter of compromise and of those blamed stepping back might wish to think about possible ramifications.

[french frank]

I agree with MrGG to the extent that, if it is the case that the opponents of amplified music in Bath have attitude problems towards the buskers which have nothing to do with their music, but are just using it as an excuse,

Which appears to be Gongers' starting point, even though he claims some distance from the event, wasn't there, can't do anything about it &c &c. I can't see why the 'opponents of amplified music' would have an attitude problem towards the buskers that had 'nothing to do with the music' (not even the volume of the music). And why would they seek to see the buskers 'removed from the city of Bath'? That seems to be venturing into fantasy, when the the most obvious explanation is staring people in the face.

[Serial_Apologist]

Which appears to be Gongers' starting point, even though he claims some distance from the event, wasn't there, can't do anything about it &c &c. I can't see why the 'opponents of amplified music' would have an attitude problem towards the buskers that had 'nothing to do with the music' (not even the volume of the music). And why would they seek to see the buskers 'removed from the city of Bath'? That seems to be venturing into fantasy, when the the most obvious explanation is staring people in the face.

It's only "obvious" if we really know that the buskers were unreasonably loud. If we knew that, and for sure, is what I'm saying, then there would be no argument. How come we are so sure, then? I smell an agenda here.

[jean]

...[b]if it is the case that the opponents of amplified music in Bath have attitude problems towards the buskers which have nothing to do with their music, but are just using it as an excuse...

The important word here is if.

Do we have any evidence at all that this is the case, other than a perception that the Church likes telling people what to do?

...then decibel readings inside and outside the Abbey, and comparison with such readings from other abbey/church/cathedral precincts similarly affected, would offer some kind of yardstick to determine who is right.

And the important word here is right.

If by right we mean whose complaint is justified, we are assuming that objective measurement trumps subjective experience, as I put it above, though MrGG said that was not what he intended.

So what do we mean? Even if we condiser that Cathedral A's ability to cope with a certain objectively-measured level of sound is greater than Cathedral B's, there's a whole range of variables within any cathedral context - the level of external noise that would make it difficult for a boy or girl singing their first solo to continue is a lot less than would defeat the organist armed with a robust voluntary.

...any agreement by the buskers to stop performing during services could act as an unjustified basis for victory by the other side...

Most of the buskers have agreed to do this anyway, without any claims of victory. by the Abbey AFAIK. And talk of sides, which seems to come mostly from people not involved in the situation, can only damage the possibility of a negotiated solution with the others.

[jean]

It's only "obvious" if we really know that the buskers were unreasonably loud...

There is no objective definition of unreasonableness.

...I smell an agenda here.

Oh please! As I and others have repeatedly noted, we are only discussing this matter in these terms because the Church is involved.

[MrGongGong]

Actually the best "solution" is staring the organist in the face

VOLUMINA

[Flosshilde]

if it is the case that the opponents of amplified music in Bath have attitude problems towards the buskers which have nothing to do with their music, but are just using it as an excuse,

'If' indeed - but there is no reason to assume that. It's just as likely that the buskers have attitude problems towards the Abbey, especially as some have said that they do what they do as a way of sticking two fingers up to 'authority' (If I remember a prvious quote correctly). It would seem that there is a small number of buskers who do have a problem with the Abbey, since a system of lights, indicating when a service is in progress, has worked in the past.

decibel readings inside and outside the Abbey, and comparison with such readings from other abbey/church/cathedral precincts similarly affected, would offer some kind of yardstick to determine who is right.

Why? How?

[Serial_Apologist]

Why? How?

Well in the case where similar levels of sound from buskers elsewhere, as measured inside and outside premises, were unproblematical, it could suggest that the authorities in Bath Abbey have a specific attitude problem towards buskers.

[Serial_Apologist]

There is no objective definition of [I]unreasonableness./I]

Oh I don't know. Unreasonableness takes many forms. Attitudes included.

Oh please! As I and others have repeatedly noted, we are only discussing this matter in these terms because the Church is involved.

In London Camden is involved. I would be surprised if the problem is restricted to either place.