Choral Evensong service halted by buskers mid-way at Bath Abbey

[Bryn]

I attended a concert at Cafe OTO the other night (Ken Vandermark, John Tilbury and Eddie Prevost). There was music of a popular teenage combo type leaking in from a nearby venue. I found this a little distracting at times and mentioned it to John during the interval (I had to miss the short second set inorder to get home). He had noticed it, but said it did not worry him. There again, his has been a friend of Cristian Wolff's for many decades.

[french frank]

maybe some measurements would help ?

Thassorl

No, they wouldn't. Because the fact that some people didn't hear anything AT ALL, wouldn't cancel out people who DID hear it. So, no, measurements wouldn't help at all.

We'll just hope that Abbey and musicians can sort things out which merely needs the musicians to stay away with their amplification while services (with or without music) are in progress. Doesn't it? Most of the time services aren't in progress, so it isn't much of a concession being asked of the musicians, as I'm sure you agree

[MrGongGong]

No, they wouldn't. Because the fact that some people didn't hear anything AT ALL, wouldn't cancel out people who DID hear it. So, no, measurements wouldn't help at all.

We'll just hope that Abbey and musicians can sort things out which merely needs the musicians to stay away with their amplification while services (with or without music) are in progress. Doesn't it? Most of the time services aren't in progress, so it isn't much of a concession being asked of the musicians, as I'm sure you agree

I'm not sure I agree at all
Some people are always looking for a reason to complain
Last time I went there I found that Bath Abbey was in a city, cities are noisy places full of people
which is why some of us like to go to places where there aren't lots of people when we want less noise

I'm still puzzled why no-one thought it would be useful to record this ?
Would be the first thing that I would have done

More rules ?

So I guess a samba band is fine and a solo singer with a small amp isn't ?
Hummmmmm

[french frank]

Some people are always looking for a reason to complain

Yes, I think it has always been fairly clear where you were coming from on this issue ...

[Flosshilde]

An objective test like measuring the decibel level wouldn't tell you whether it was disruptive or not. That would be subjective.

[jean]

It would show whether there is a genuine reason for them to complain.

And who would decide what level provided a genuine reason?

You say the Abbey musicians do 'count', but apparently only if some third party judges that their complaints are genuine.

[MrGongGong]

And who would decide what level provided a genuine reason?

You say the Abbey musicians do 'count', but apparently only if some third party judges that their complaints are genuine.

FFS

If some people say one thing
and some say another
who does one believe ?

I don't know
I wasn't there

I've nothing against the Abbey Musicians at all

[jean]

If some people say one thing
and some say another
who does one believe ?

As has already been said many times on this thread - one believes them both, the ones who say they have a problem AND the ones who say they haven't.

And one recognises that if anyone has a problem, then a problem exists, and all the parties involved should make efforts to solve it.

I've nothing against the Abbey Musicians at all

Except that you think there's some objective measure of whether they are entitled to have a problem or not.

Perhaps this is the solution we are looking for:

The Abbey seems to have a lot of large and rather old-fashioned windows. They could achieve a double whammy of reduced noise and increased energy efficiency by junking them and getting some proper modern triple-glazed units.

[Ferretfancy]

I remember a very good classical guitarist playing outside Bath Abbey. Surely there should not be a problem,since I assume that since the church is not conducting services or choir practices non stop, the buskers could agree to cease playing when abbey events are happening -not too difficult surely?

Q. Why have we all become so small minded ?

A. Good old class distinction is still alive and kicking in Bath.

[MrGongGong]

Except that you think there's some objective measure of whether they are entitled to have a problem or not.

Why on earth do you assume that ?

SPL can be measured
The perception of "noise" is a mixture of objective and subjective factors
I suggest you read a few books about acoustics and psychoacoustics rather than jumping to false conclusions.

I think some peoples problem with this is that they seem to see it as some kind of battle between the ancient traditions of CE and the unwashed hordes who are threatening their peaceful services with evil noise.

http://musicandsoundstudies.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/noise-street-musicians-and-public-outrage-in-england-1600-1900/

and to reiterate

I'm not keen on buskers (but having been one in the past do understand a bit of what they are saying)
I love quiet music
but I hate officious people who like to tell others how to live their lives
Cities are noisy places, not exactly a new phenomena
Some people think that the church should still be allowed to make rules for the rest of us. I don't.

[french frank]

FFS

If some people say one thing
and some say another
who does one believe ?

I don't know
I wasn't there

It sn't a question of 'believing' one side or the other. Of thinking one side is, objectively ('measure the levels'), 'telling the truth' and the other side 'isn't'. That's simplistic. If the buskers' music is disruptive to the Abbey services, to musicians or congregations, there is a problem which can easily be solved by the buskers limiting their playing to all other times but while services are in progress, or play in any other part of Bath where their music does not disrupt those services. [Nor would this be susceptible to decision by vote: 92 say the music was too loud, 93 say it wasn't - carry on busking.]

What seems unreasonable to reasonable people, surely, is that, just because the buskers have 'rights', they can expect to exercise those rights 24/7, wherever they like. You seem highly resentful of anyone 'in authority' imposing that 'rule'.

[doversoul1]

Some people think that the church should still be allowed to make rules for the rest of us. I don't.

Why on earth do you assume that?

[jean]

Why on earth do you assume that ?

Because you go on to say exactly that:

SPL can be measured
The perception of "noise" is a mixture of objective and subjective factors...

So some third party (who?) decides on the basis of these 'objective' measurements that the 'subjective' experiences of the Abbey musicians (let's leave the clergy out of it) can be dismissed?

[MrGongGong]

Because you go on to say exactly that:


So some third party (who?) decides on the basis of these 'objective' measurements that the 'subjective' experiences of the Abbey musicians (let's leave the clergy out of it) can be dismissed?

no I don't at all

Why don't you try READING what people write?
I never said anyone should be "dismissed" (your words not mine)

I said that the perception of noise is a MIXTURE
NOT that it was an "objective" thing at all but a MIXTURE of factors

I'm sure Prof Cox from Salford University department of acoustics will be delighted to help you understand a bit more about these things.

There is much to read about the perception of noise (WFAE is a good place to start)

Some folks seem to be suggesting that if ANYONE decides something is a disturbance it should be stopped
That's fine in the imaginary world but we have to live in the one we have.

Like many musicians I have frequently had to stop recordings, rehearsals etc because of sound intruding.
In Cities (there's a CLUE ) this is an inescapable aspect of living in close proximity of other people.
That's the way the world is (and has always been)

Here's another example



The problem about the "rules" approach is that the folks busking will (understandably IMV) see it as the church deciding what should happen and when.

Some interesting things about the privatisation of public space

http://livemusicexchange.org/blog/the-rules-of-freedom-the-place-of-street-music-in-the-life-of-our-cities-jonny-walker/

[french frank]

There comes a point where at least half the 'argument' declines to tackle the opposing arguments and just repeats its own. Not a lot of point in continuing, in my view