van Beethoven's worst mistake

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  • Sydney Grew
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 754

    van Beethoven's worst mistake

    Van Beethoven wrote a lot of uncommonly exciting music, but he also made many mistakes. By far his worst mistake was to write an opera about "The Triumph of Married Love". Over what exactly is "Married Love" supposed to be triumphing? And what sort of "love" can "married love" possibly be anyway?

    Wilhelm Furtwängler told us, did he not, that "the conjugal love of Leonore appears, to the modern individual armed with realism and psychology, irremediably abstract and theoretical." He also said that "for us Europeans, as for all men, this music will always represent an appeal to our conscience."

    Well! We enlightened twenty-first century men of conscience, who devote, and rightly so, so much energy to ridding the world of the hideous mediæval practice of "wedlock", are unwilling to see our efforts undermined by this almost obscene opera from a nineteenth-century misfit. Let all performances of this travesty of "love" be banned henceforth and for ever!

    As the editor of the Spectator reminded us in 1902, the only appropriate and valid kind of "marriage" must be a cohabitational arrangement made by the respective parents of a couple, and its only proper purpose the generation of offspring. "Love" has nothing whatever to do with the matter.
  • kernelbogey
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 5554

    #2
    While I disagree with almost everything you've written in your post, Sydney, I have to say that I've always found that Fidelio leaves me cold. The one exception was seeing the production at Covent Garden, when the prisoners emerge from the dungeons, they move very slowly, rubbing their eyes: realistic and moving at the same time.

    I'd hate to see it banned, though...

    Comment

    • Pabmusic
      Full Member
      • May 2011
      • 5537

      #3


      Can I have some of whatever it is you're using?

      Comment

      • kernelbogey
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 5554

        #4
        Originally posted by Pabmusic View Post


        Can I have some of whatever it is you're using?

        You talkin' to me?

        Comment

        • Pabmusic
          Full Member
          • May 2011
          • 5537

          #5
          Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
          You talkin' to me?
          No!!! Sorry…

          Comment

          • kernelbogey
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 5554

            #6
            Thought perhaps you were enquiring about my morning meditation and herbal remedies routine .

            Comment

            • Pabmusic
              Full Member
              • May 2011
              • 5537

              #7
              Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
              Thought perhaps you were enquiring about my morning meditation and herbal remedies routine .
              It's a very long time since I've had any herbal medicine. About 1972 or 1973 I'd guess.

              [Maybe I'm straying off topic. ]

              Comment

              • ardcarp
                Late member
                • Nov 2010
                • 11102

                #8
                I can think of several pieces by Beethoven which, if not mistakes exactly, seem to occupy a lesser place in his oeuvres. I can't bear The Consecration of the House, and the Choral Fantasy is just 'good in parts' IMVHO. But Fidelio? A great work. As an undergraduate coming up to university with no experience of opera whatsoever (if you discount G&S) I was completely hooked by Fidelio both for its music and its revolutionary politics.

                Comment

                • kernelbogey
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 5554

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                  [...] I was completely hooked by Fidelio both for its music and its revolutionary politics.
                  On reflecting further on the OP, I remembered Jill Morell, the girlfriend of John McCarthy who was imprisoned with Terry Waite, who worked tirelessly for years to get them freed.

                  An interesting parallel - of love triumphing? (Albeit they ended up not being together.)
                  Last edited by kernelbogey; 03-09-14, 08:28. Reason: Found their names

                  Comment

                  • Bryn
                    Banned
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 24688

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                    ... I can't bear The Consecration of the House, ...
                    I hope you have a good bomb-proof shelter available. Expect incoming re. this finest of Beethoven overtures. So beautifully wrought a tribute to Handel.

                    Comment

                    • kernelbogey
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 5554

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                      [...] this finest of Beethoven overtures...
                      I raise you one Coriolan.

                      Comment

                      • Bryn
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 24688

                        #12
                        Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                        I raise you one Coriolan.
                        You hold the losing hand in that case. A fine work, but no Op. 124.

                        Comment

                        • Pabmusic
                          Full Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 5537

                          #13
                          Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                          I raise you one Coriolan.
                          Egmont?

                          Comment

                          • Bryn
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 24688

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Pabmusic View Post
                            Egmont?
                            I refer the Hon. Gentleman to the response offered in #12.

                            Comment

                            • Richard Tarleton

                              #15
                              I'm confused - I thought "the hideous mediæval practice" was "a cohabitational arrangement made by the respective parents of a couple, [with] its only proper purpose the generation of offspring" - still widely practised in some cultures today, for example in the sub-continent. It carries with it the assumption that women (in particular) are the property of their parents, unable to make their own choices regarding choice of partner, reproduction, or just about anything else - barbaric, in fact. (Men are of course, the assumption goes, free to pursue their own recreational interests on the side).

                              Having said which I don't like Fidelio. Opera was not Beethoven's métier. Great music, but dramatically, psychologically etc. not a success, IMVHO.
                              Last edited by Guest; 03-09-14, 09:11.

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