Controller, BBC Radio 3

[Ein Heldenleben]

When the BBC got dictatorial about what listeners could and could not discuss on the BBC messageboards, posters upped sticks and created their own forums, including the FoR3 forum which was the precursor to this one. Then the BBC decided it couldn't afford to run forums which we amateurs did for next to nothing with volunteers, and they closed the whole lot down, saying they were providing R3 Facebook and Twitter instead which were much more what 'people wanted'. But in the end they were just BBC marketing tools, not for listeners.

I’ve thought of a fourth reason - it was also felt that the message boards were becoming a bit of a club for a small ish group of non representative people. Don’t take that the wrong way …I repeat I know nothing about the R3 boards,
As a side issue producers came under a lot of pressure to engage with Facebook and post / update constantly . And I mean a lot of pressure ….some of us thought that was a a way of shooting ourselves in the foot and degrading the brand . Luckily I don’t have to worry about things like that any more .

[french frank]

I’ve thought of a fourth reason - it was also felt that the message boards were becoming a bit of a club for a small ish group of non representative people. Don’t take that the wrong way …

With Radio 3 deciding who was 'unrepresentative'? It was where the momentum for FoR3 came from, it's true! And FoR3 was not welcome to R3/the BBC because it hated the idea of audiences becoming 'organised'. RW always tried to represent us as just a lot of individuals, not representative of anything except ourselves individually, so that when I expressed an opinion which was widely held that was just me stating my own opinion. We were given a lot more time by the BBC Trust (and I'm in a minority, I suspect, in thinking they were a good thing - but they were set up to hold management to account, and to an extent represent the licence fee payers).

As a side issue producers came under a lot of pressure to engage with Facebook and post / update constantly . And I mean a lot of pressure ….

I'm not surprised. But the idea that these were anything remotely like updated platforms to replace old-fashioned messageboards was, to be charitable, disingenuous. Radio 3 posted regularly about what it was offering but audiences couldn't comment on what they wanted to comment on - only on what R3 had posted. That's why I say Facebook and Twitter are just marketing tools - the social media equivalent of on-air programme trails.

I can sympathise with the view that there was a fear that views expressed on the messageboards might be assumed to have been 'endorsed' by the BBC. We had the same problem with these boards. I had to point out to Lebrecht that madheaded, abusive lunatics ranting on our forum did NOT represent the views of FoR3.

[JasonPalmer]

I used to post on the BBC message boards as lord byron, ahh, the memories.

[Ein Heldenleben]

With Radio 3 deciding who was 'unrepresentative'? It was where the momentum for FoR3 came from, it's true! And FoR3 was not welcome to R3/the BBC because it hated the idea of audiences becoming 'organised'. RW always tried to represent us as just a lot of individuals, not representative of anything except ourselves individually, so that when I expressed an opinion which was widely held that was just me stating my own opinion. We were given a lot more time by the BBC Trust (and I'm in a minority, I suspect, in thinking they were a good thing - but they were set up to hold management to account, and to an extent represent the licence fee payers).



I'm not surprised. But the idea that these were anything remotely like updated platforms to replace old-fashioned messageboards was, to be charitable, disingenuous. Radio 3 posted regularly about what it was offering but audiences couldn't comment on what they wanted to comment on - only on what R3 had posted. That's why I say Facebook and Twitter are just marketing tools - the social media equivalent of on-air programme trails.

I can sympathise with the view that there was a fear that views expressed on the messageboards might be assumed to have been 'endorsed' by the BBC. We had the same problem with these boards. I had to point out to Lebrecht that madheaded, abusive lunatics ranting on our forum did NOT represent the views of FoR3.

If I had a pound for every time someone said to me “the BBC said last night “ to which I would reply the BBC didn’t say it an interviewee did. Inclusion is not endorsement. I agree Facebook is all about marketing and is not a two way exchange.
You’re right about the Trust and before that the Board of Governors. There’s actually considerably less independent oversight of the BBC now , particularly as OFCOM is the dog that won’t bark. The BBC cuts services left right and centre and hardly a murmur from the non BBC members of ExCo or , more worryingly, OFCOM .

[oddoneout]

I can't find the thread with the comments about Sam Jackson's appointment. It occurred to me that he must be in post now so has anyone heard anything about what he's up to?

[smittims]

I've been waiting for ages for Sam to make some sort of policy statement . I'm sure it'll be a damp squib, something about 'Making Radio 3 more friendly and accessible while at the same time preserving the best of its traditions'.

[french frank]

I think this Guardian editorial has already been flagged up (on this thread?) but rereading it I did find one assertion (editorials and CIFs do tend to go in for 'assertions') that I probably commented on at the time, but as I found it so striking I thought I'd comment again:

"That phrase “dumbing down” has been the bugbear of controllers from Nicholas Kenyon in the early 1990s on. No one has ever properly defined what it means ..."

No one except the OED and the recent edition of Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Fourth edition, 2015, Impression 1), perhaps. The OED gives a UK example from 2000:

"To become less intellectually challenging or sophisticated, or produce less intellectually demanding material, esp. in order to appeal to a mass audience."

Fowler has, Meaning 2 under 'dumb' :

"In the late 1990s dumb moved out of its previous twilight existence as a literary verb [here an example of said usage] with the emergence of the new phrasal verb dumb down, meaning 'to make more simple or less intellectually demanding, especially in order to reach a broader audience', with pejorative connotations. Used primarily in the fields of broadcasting, education, and the arts, its immediacy of meaning and nuance have made it a standard part of the language."

Sorry - pure pedantry, but I was outraged by the ignorant assertion which found its way into The Guardian. One may criticise the terminology of 'dumbing down', of course, but not the meaning. I post on this thread because the editorial was about Radio 3 and the (then) new controller. It poses the question: "Poisoned chalice or an opportunity for Mr Jackson to bring a fresh vision to the BBC’s cultural standard-bearer?" Or just another job, a foot up the cultural industries ladder? We await the answer with interest

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think this Guardian editorial has already been flagged up (on this thread?) but rereading it I did find one assertion (editorials and CIFs do tend to go in for 'assertions') that I probably commented on at the time, but as I found it so striking I thought I'd comment again:

"That phrase “dumbing down” has been the bugbear of controllers from Nicholas Kenyon in the early 1990s on. No one has ever properly defined what it means ..."

No one except the OED and the recent edition of Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Fourth edition, 2015, Impression 1), perhaps. The OED gives a UK example from 2000:

"To become less intellectually challenging or sophisticated, or produce less intellectually demanding material, esp. in order to appeal to a mass audience."

Fowler has, Meaning 2 under 'dumb' :

"In the late 1990s dumb moved out of its previous twilight existence as a literary verb [here an example of said usage] with the emergence of the new phrasal verb dumb down, meaning 'to make more simple or less intellectually demanding, especially in order to reach a broader audience', with pejorative connotations. Used primarily in the fields of broadcasting, education, and the arts, its immediacy of meaning and nuance have made it a standard part of the language."

Sorry - pure pedantry, but I was outraged by the ignorant assertion which found its way into The Guardian. One may criticise the terminology of 'dumbing down', of course, but not the meaning. I post on this thread because the editorial was about Radio 3 and the (then) new controller. It poses the question: "Poisoned chalice or an opportunity for Mr Jackson to bring a fresh vision to the BBC’s cultural standard-bearer?" Or just another job, a foot up the cultural industries ladder? We await the answer with interest

Dumb is an American -English word for stupid that sadly took hold in this country after the huge success of 1994 comedy film Dumb and Dumber. A sequel and a prequel followed . Up until then dumb in this country meant mute as in deaf and dumb. Not surprisingly when the American usage took hold the English one was dropped fairly rapidly as one the unfortunate consequences of being deaf or hard of hearing is the not infrequent erroneous assumption by a few of intellectual impairment. The word dumb is bandied around all the time in the States along with mad (angry) and indeed Prom (secondary school disco not the self-styled “worlds greatest music festival”)

[Old Grumpy]

Dumb is an American -English word for stupid that sadly took hold in this country after the huge success of 1994 comedy film Dumb and Dumber. A sequel and a prequel followed . Up until then dumb in this country meant mute as in deaf and dumb. Not surprisingly when the American usage took hold the English one was dropped fairly rapidly as one the unfortunate consequences of being deaf or hard of hearing is the not infrequent erroneous assumption by a few of intellectual impairment. The word dumb is bandied around all the time in the States along with mad (angry) and indeed Prom (secondary school disco not the self-styled “worlds greatest music festival”)

Yep, "proms" even seem to be de rigeur for those "graduating" from primary school...


...f*'ing ridiculous!

[french frank]

Dumb is an American -English word for stupid that sadly took hold in this country after the huge success of 1994 comedy film Dumb and Dumber.

Which is, of course, why to dumb down' is inferred as suggesting that people are stupid. Just as' ignorant' is taken as an insult when it can be simply a statement of fact, implying that there certain things that people don't know, however intelligent they are. It's unfortunate that people have a tendency to find offence where none is intended, not helped by the fact that in some/many cases offence is intended. The problem is that no one has come up with a better alternative for an undisputed fact. When I see that Tearjerker and Happy Harmonies have returned to "the UK's leading cultural broadcaster" I think 'dumbing down'. People who enjoy such programmes have different tastes from mine, and I find my tastes being catered for less and less. Mr Jackson (to get back on topic).

[oddoneout]

Perhaps "they" would be happier with "increasingly lightweight"...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yep, "proms" even seem to be de rigeur for those "graduating" from primary school...


...f*'ing ridiculous!

The Americanisation of this country continues apace. God help us….what was wrong with 70’s school discos where nobody really dressed up , the chemistry teacher did the disco for a few quid and Carling cans were smuggled in via the girls’ handbags or secreted - in a Le Carre style dead drop operation - around the school in the hours before ?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Which is, of course, why to dumb down' is inferred as suggesting that people are stupid. Just as' ignorant' is taken as an insult when it can be simply a statement of fact, implying that there certain things that people don't know, however inintelligent they are. It's unfortunate that people have a tendency to find offence where none is intended, not helped by the fact that in some/many cases offence is intended. The problem is that no one has come up with a better alternative for an undisputed fact. When I see that Tearjerker and Happy Harmonies have returned to "the UK's leading cultural broadcaster" I think 'dumbing down'. People who enjoy such programmes have different tastes from mine, and I find my tastes being catered for less and less. Mr Jackson (to get back on topic).

I haven’t got the energy to prove it but I would wager that 70’s Radio 3 had more serial music and virtually no four chord repetitive piano strumming in those mind emptying programmes you refer two. Nothing wrong with four chords in the hands say of The Who but as used by the Zimmers and Richters …I’ve had enough of it just watching telly.

[smittims]

I expect the Guardian article was deliberately provocative in saying that 'dumbing down' had not been 'properly' defined, just as they were in their repeated use of 'white' and referring to listeners in the south of England. That's known to be tosh since the Third was supposed to appeal to teachers in Leicester.

But as far as I know Sam has still not come clean about what he intends to do.

[french frank]

Yep, "proms" even seem to be de rigeur for those "graduating" from primary school...


...f*'ing ridiculous!

Interesting: the earliest recorded meaning of this abbreviation: "1879 Originally U.S. A ball or formal dance at a school or college, typically held for the members of a single (typically senior) class near the end of the school year."

Also: "1902 Chiefly British. Usually with capital initial. = promenade concert; spec. (chiefly in plural. The Proms) any one of the series of Henry Wood Promenade Concerts now performed annually at the Royal Albert Hall in London."

Apologies, down with this sort of thing: there is already an appropriate thread.