Controller, BBC Radio 3

[french frank]

I enjoyed Humphrey Carpenter's comments in "The Envy of the World"... I wonder how he'd sum up Jackson's appointment?

"In these days of ‘managerialism' and relentless commercial competition – not to mention the BBC’s own controversial attempts to compete with its commercial rivals – Radio 3 will continue to be at risk.” [H Carpenter]

I would be interested to read a structured essay (minimum 6 pages) on why the BBC thinks it desirable to attract a younger audience to Radio 3. Glib one-liners not of interest.

[JasonPalmer]

"In these days of ‘managerialism' and relentless commercial competition – not to mention the BBC’s own controversial attempts to compete with its commercial rivals – Radio 3 will continue to be at risk.” [H Carpenter]

I would be interested to read a structured essay (minimum 6 pages) on why the BBC thinks it desirable to attract a younger audience to Radio 3. Glib one-liners not of interest.

I think a lot of people get into classical music as they retire so the audience will always be older, younger people are too busy with pop,earning a living and raising children. As long as their is an audience, that's all that matters.

[RichardB]

I think a lot of people get into classical music as they retire so the audience will always be older, younger people are too busy with pop, earning a living and raising children

Do you have any evidence for that assertion? - if you were to take the members of this forum as a cross-section of Radio 3 listeners, you'd probably find that, though many of us are no longer in the first flush of youth so to speak, probably most of us have been "into classical music" since an early age.

Why should Radio 3 try to attract a younger audience? Well, from personal experience, I learned a lot of what I know about the music from listening to Radio 3 as a teenager, and if I hadn't learned those things my life might have taken a different direction. If young people aren't offered these musical experiences at school (which is increasingly the case) they might end up not getting them anywhere, so that a whole generation not only of listeners but of musicians (both amateur and professional) might be lost. On the other hand I wasn't attracted to Radio 3 by having Tom Service screaming in my ear about how fantastic everything is.

[french frank]

Why should Radio 3 try to attract a younger audience? Well, from personal experience, I learned a lot of what I know about the music from listening to Radio 3 as a teenager, and if I hadn't learned those things my life might have taken a different direction. If young people aren't offered these musical experiences at school (which is increasingly the case) they might end up not getting them anywhere, so that a whole generation not only of listeners but of musicians (both amateur and professional) might be lost. On the other hand I wasn't attracted to Radio 3 by having Tom Service screaming in my ear about how fantastic everything is.

That's the ideal. But that's what YOU got from R3, and many teenagers in the past would have felt the same. I was angling at why the BBC thought it desirable, what it wanted from R3, because that would affect the methods they used to attract that audience. Judging from the old BBC Late Junction messageboarders the programme succeeded in drawing them to Radio 3 in the first place, but only to listen to Late Junction. Any suggestion that having been drawn to R3 they developed an interest in classical music (or jazz, if they weren't already enthusiasts) wasn't borne out by what they posted. In fact they were quite hostile to the classical audience who had 'so much' of the airtime. RW told me they had also wanted an Early Junction (I presumed at breakfast time).

I thought at the time that the purpose of Late Junction, and other programmes, was to draw in a wider range of listeners = a larger audience and increased reach. In any case, as older listeners - for whatever reason! - stop listening, they have to be replenished and the BBC's approach has been: what kind of listener do we target? What do we put on that they will want to listen to? That's the Radio 1 strategy. As listeners outgrow the station, the content has to be adapted for the new intake. That's not what Radio 3 should do. In my opinion. But 'Marketing and Audiences' are a key BBC depatment. If you fancy a job as a 'Brand Strategist' apply here. Sorry, too late.

[Bryn]

Do you have any evidence for that assertion? - if you were to take the members of this forum as a cross-section of Radio 3 listeners, you'd probably find that, though many of us are no longer in the first flush of youth so to speak, probably most of us have been "into classical music" since an early age.

Why should Radio 3 try to attract a younger audience? Well, from personal experience, I learned a lot of what I know about the music from listening to Radio 3 as a teenager, and if I hadn't learned those things my life might have taken a different direction. If young people aren't offered these musical experiences at school (which is increasingly the case) they might end up not getting them anywhere, so that a whole generation not only of listeners but of musicians (both amateur and professional) might be lost. On the other hand I wasn't attracted to Radio 3 by having Tom Service screaming in my ear about how fantastic everything is.

Indeed, I developed a very real aversion to 'Top of the Pops' type popular music at an early age. I only started to appreciate the qualities of the best of a wider interpretation of the genre in my early 20s. These days, there are few practitioners of rock/pop that I would go out of my way to listen to. That is not to dismiss others, it's just that I would more often choose to listen to music of a different experimental approach, whether it be Hildegard, Beethoven, or Eddie Prévost.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's the ideal. But that's what YOU got from R3, and many teenagers in the past would have felt the same. I was angling at why the BBC thought it desirable, what it wanted from R3, because that would affect the methods they used to attract that audience. Judging from the old BBC Late Junction messageboarders the programme succeeded in drawing them to Radio 3 in the first place, but only to listen to Late Junction. Any suggestion that having been drawn to R3 they developed an interest in classical music (or jazz, if they weren't already enthusiasts) wasn't borne out by what they posted. In fact they were quite hostile to the classical audience who had 'so much' of the airtime. RW told me they had also wanted an Early Junction (I presumed at breakfast time).

I thought at the time that the purpose of Late Junction, and other programmes, was to draw in a wider range of listeners = a larger audience and increased reach. In any case, as older listeners - for whatever reason! - stop listening, they have to be replenished and the BBC's approach has been: what kind of listener do we target? What do we put on that they will want to listen to? That's the Radio 1 strategy. As listeners outgrow the station, the content has to be adapted for the new intake. That's not what Radio 3 should do. In my opinion. But 'Marketing and Audiences' are a key BBC depatment. If you fancy a job as a 'Brand Strategist' apply here. Sorry, too late.

I have no real knowledge of Radio Three’s current audience strategy but I would be surprised if attracting more 18-25’s is a key priority. There’s a general concern that this demographic ( to use the jargon) is barely engaging with speech radio at all. But they are listening to podcasts ( eg Sweet Bobby - an absolute phenomenon) and streaming services. Of more concern would be the 25-34 , and 34- 65’ who seem to prefer Radio 2 , independent radio and , for classical lovers , Classic FM
The conundrum Radio 3 faces is trying not to alienate the over 60’s - its core audience while drawing in new listeners . It’s particularly important for them as they (over 60’s) make up a disproportionate part of their audience.

The other key thing which I always have to repeat because people don’t believe me is that more people turn 65 every year than 18. The downside of this is rapidly growing demands on health care. The upside for those that work in the media especially TV and Radio is that this demo consume a lot of traditional media.
The real baby boom didn’t start in 1945 - that one only lasted a year . The real boom in births started in 1957 and lasted for ten years . It led to a massive expansion in primary school provision in the sixties . Now that so- called “pig in the pipe “ [ a reference to the bulge in the population pyramid) is hitting the sweet spot of max traditional media consumption- though that is being eaten away by the streamers especially on BBC One , Two and ITV. Radio Three’s loss of audience has not been as marked as the latter three. But Radio Three’s existence is pretty much predicated on the overall popularity of BBC One.
The fact of the matter is that the BBC’s radio services are still very popular though each service has its own bespoke set of problems. TV is in much more trouble.

[french frank]

Of more concern would be the 25-34 , and 34- 65’ who seem to prefer Radio 2 , independent radio and , for classical lovers , Classic FM

I agree with most of what you say. And yes 'younger audiences' is an imprecise term. I believe R3's 'replenisher' group would be the 35-54s. I would guess they split between the R2 listeners and 6 Music. When Aled Jones was poached from CFM, he had programmes on R2 and R3. Several of the 6 Music presenters have appeared in various R3 programmes. But a BBC strategy could be 1) attract new listeners to R3 by including R2/6 Music/CFM content on Radio3, or 2) including R3 content on R2/6 Music. I'd be interested to hear the BBC's explanation for preferring to 1) to 2). Though I can even now hear them saying, "Oh, the Lark Ascending was on R2 last week, and Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet on 6 Music the week before. So you see ..."

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree with most of what you say. And yes 'younger audiences' is an imprecise term. I believe R3's 'replenisher' group would be the 35-54s. I would guess they split between the R2 listeners and 6 Music. When Aled Jones was poached from CFM, he had programmes on R2 and R3. Several of the 6 Music presenters have appeared in various R3 programmes. But a BBC strategy could be 1) attract new listeners to R3 by including R2/6 Music/CFM content on Radio3, or 2) including R3 content on R2/6 Music. I'd be interested to hear the BBC's explanation for preferring to 1) to 2). Though I can even now hear them saying, "Oh, the Lark Ascending was on R2 last week, and Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet on 6 Music the week before. So you see ..."

The problem is that the “replenisher “ group is getting smaller . Also thanks to Covid et al life expectancy is falling. It’s being so miserable as keeps me going.

I think putting more trad R2 stuff on R3 is a strategy to do this - attract the under sixties . Classic FM is not supposed to play Jazz , Big Band , Ella Fitzgerald. The last named is on every day of the week …The result8ng problem is the slight ragbag feel to 07.00- 12.00.

[french frank]

It’s being so miserable as keeps me going.

I think putting more trad R2 stuff on R3 is a strategy to do this - attract the under sixties .

But why would you want to do that? Isn't that a defeatist - and self perpetuating - argument that gradually fewer and fewer people will care about classical music, a sort of cultural Javan rhino?

On the other hand, I've just this minute read about the demise of the "world's finest restaurant", Noma, perhaps heralding the end of 'fine dining'… "If what tickles your tastebuds for supper is duck brain served in the skull, edible pine cones, sweetbreads in reindeer moss and dried plum and pheasant heart followed by a berry-leather and black-garlic beetle, you’d better get a move on."

Perhaps not everything that's about to become extinct is worth bothering about?

[Ein Heldenleben]

But why would you want to do that? Isn't that a defeatist - and self perpetuating - argument that gradually fewer and fewer people will care about classical music, a sort of cultural Javan rhino?

On the other hand, I've just this minute read about the demise of the "world's finest restaurant", Noma, perhaps heralding the end of 'fine dining'… "If what tickles your tastebuds for supper is duck brain served in the skull, edible pine cones, sweetbreads in reindeer moss and dried plum and pheasant heart followed by a berry-leather and black-garlic beetle, you’d better get a move on."

Perhaps not everything that's about to become extinct is worth bothering about?

It might be mistaken that there’s a new audience out there for lighter classical fare and the “blander “ jazz (Ella / Oscar rather than McCoy Tyner ) .I’m not sure there is even though I have quite a Catholic taste in both genres.

Meanwhile in the real world The Ballet Rambert Peaky Blinders show has sold out 6 performances of our local 1,300 theatre. There is an appetite for contemporary dance and music believe me. Matthew Bournes also latest sold out over two weeks . It’s not all juke box musicals

[JasonPalmer]

I am sure I heard an advert on radio 3 for a radio 4 program earlier, perhaps radio 2 and 4 should run adverts for radio 3 concerts.

[oddoneout]

I am sure I heard an advert on radio 3 for a radio 4 program earlier, perhaps radio 2 and 4 should run adverts for radio 3 concerts.

This surfaces periodically in these parts. There are also adverts for TV programmes, but when do we see R3 adverts on the Beeb? Proms ones don't count - not least as if they finally stop televising them then there won't even be those.
A related issue is why Through the Night has chunks taken away for Dumbtime, the content of which belongs elsewhere; those stations aren't expected to give up hours to broadcast R3 content though.

[oddoneout]

But why would you want to do that? Isn't that a defeatist - and self perpetuating - argument that gradually fewer and fewer people will care about classical music, a sort of cultural Javan rhino?

On the other hand, I've just this minute read about the demise of the "world's finest restaurant", Noma, perhaps heralding the end of 'fine dining'… "If what tickles your tastebuds for supper is duck brain served in the skull, edible pine cones, sweetbreads in reindeer moss and dried plum and pheasant heart followed by a berry-leather and black-garlic beetle, you’d better get a move on."

Perhaps not everything that's about to become extinct is worth bothering about?

The picture at the top of that article looks more like a shock tactic art installation than something you'd want to eat, and I can't help wondering about the germs and wildlife from the hay and feathers.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jan/13/danish-restaurant-noma-makes-way-for-food-lab

Sorry, off topic

[Pulcinella]

The Times' take:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/radio-3-hires-classic-fm-veteran-sam-jackson-kx7tfxc9p?shareToken=2d9474de2d3e868cd833e19503a2b04c

[Nachtigall]

"putting him in charge of one of the world’s biggest classical music festivals, the Proms" (from the Times article). I'm not clear where that leaves David Pickard. Anyone know?