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  • clive heath

    #31
    I don't know whether this is a shameful episode in my family history or not. You be the judge.

    First there are several extracts from comments, usually from feminist writers, about an element of the sequence of novels by Dorothy Richardson. "Pilgrimage". The lead character is the authoress' alter-ego Miriam.

    "Blissful too, in Dawn’s Left Hand, are several memories of time spent with Jan and Mag, Miriam’s modern female friends who live together in intimate informality, seemingly always in camisoles and knickers, smoking, cooking for themselves or bicycling daringly round their Bloomsbury Square."

    "Miriam hungrily eyes the next course arriving at the sideboard, all the while amusing her hosts, as expected of a holiday guest, with tales of colourful London. And, to offer another,[example]: in the flat of her lesbian London friends Jan and Mag, Miriam hungrily consumes a bowl of “desiccated” soup at their concerted urgings, but only after first observing the soup’s unseemly presentation in sugar basin, pudding basin, and slop bowl "

    "There is a remarkable sense of newfound freedom as she makes friends; attends public lectures at the Royal Society; learns to ride a bike - the latter quite daring for late Victorian times, but obviously exhilarating, as described by Miriam's secretary friend Mag: "You feel like a sprite you are so light, and you feel so strong and capable and so broadshouldered you could knock down a policeman. Jan and I knocked down several last night." Richardson had a good ear for conversation, and despite her deep distrust of easy witticism, she does allow the reader some lighter moments (for instance in the shape of the Jan and Mag secretarial double-act)."

    "Richardson has an open broad horizon. Jan and Mag make money by having sex with men and she's not bothered about this."

    "The stage is carefully set by a visit Miriam pays to her friends Jan and Mag (Johnny Schleussner and Mabel Heath) on ... the top floor of a Bloomsbury building, which they have just learned is a quietly conducted, lucrative house of prostitution."

    So there you have it, the real life people on whom Dorothy Richardson based the "modern" pair, Jan and Mag, were Ellie Schluessner and my great-aunt Alice Mabel Heath. This is also an identification given in M.C. Rintoul's book "Dictionary of Real People and Places in Fiction".

    It is said that Dorothy Richardson first meets them in 1896 when she first arrives in London. Certainly the Census of 1901 has the pair of them sharing a flat at 43, Bernard Street in Bloomsbury (still there). Alice Mabel is 29 and Ellie 30. Ellie has translated Strindberg into English as well as other authors. I have a copy of her translation of Strindberg's book of short stories called in English "Marriage". She also wrote an Introduction to her translation of Emil Lucka's "The Evolution of Love" which is larded with references to Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Plato and others of relative obscurity to a peasant like me. Here is a quote
    "At the Court of the Viscountess Ermengarde of Narbonne, the question whether the love between lovers was greater than the love between husband and wife was settled as follows: "Nature and custom have erected an insuperable barrier between conjugal affection and the love which unites two lovers. It would be absurd to draw comparisons between two things which have neither resemblance nor connection."

    What about Mabel? In 1913 she married Erich Koopman and as Mrs. Koopman was elevated to artistic status as follows:
    "With the three founders ( of The Critics Circle, still going strong) being drama critics it was perhaps natural, if a little unkind, that the music members were styled the Music Committee (created in 1918 with Herman Klein as its chairman) whereas the drama representatives were named members, an anomaly not put right until many years later, In 1916 women were admitted to membership, The first lady members were Mrs Mabel Koopman who wrote for The Era and Mrs Cora Lawrence who wrote for Town Topics."

    Not bad for two lesbian ladies of ill repute!!!!!!!allegedly.

    43, Bernard Street features in another literary episode. It is the address that Bertrand Russell goes to with "Colette", his actress friend, the Lady Constance Malleson, who he is having an affair with after the falling-out with Lady Ottoline Morell.

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    • mercia
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 8920

      #32
      as part of any family research that boarders have done, have you obtained copies of birth, marriage and death certificates ? if so, how have you done this - I've been using the General Register Office site, but I wonder if there's a more economic way of doing it (or perhaps £9.25 is an average price for a certificate ?)

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      • Anna

        #33
        'Fraid not mercia, even if you go in person to the local PRO it's no cheaper (it used to be £7 for a cert but I think they put the price up when they saw the surge in people researching their history!)

        I have a huge quantity of certificates, luckily when researching I found four long lost cousins I had no idea existed via the Net and we exchanged copies of BMDs, which of course kept the cost down. It's not a cheap hobby but if you go onto the various genealogy sites (like Rootschat) with a query you might strike lucky and get some exchanges, it's worth a try.

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        • Richard Tarleton

          #34
          Originally posted by mercia View Post
          as part of any family research that boarders have done, have you obtained copies of birth, marriage and death certificates ? if so, how have you done this - I've been using the General Register Office site, but I wonder if there's a more economic way of doing it (or perhaps £9.25 is an average price for a certificate ?)

          http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ce...es/default.asp
          Mercs, you can find anything you want (just about) here - have a go at one of their free trials. This book also quite helpful. I've just discovered that my 4xgreat grandmother spent time in the Fleet Prison for debt in the late 1820s - very Dickensian - but was baled out by family members. Her husband my 4xgreat grandfather was a soldier of fortune and disappeared abroad. But his eldest son (my 3xgg) opted for respectability, became a Freeman of the City of London at 30 and was a member of the Spectaclemakers Company of London - his son became an architect.....

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          • mercia
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 8920

            #35
            thank you both - yes I'm already a 'guest member' on Ancestry, having done the free trial - but despite all the wealth of information I've picked up there I've still needed hard copy certificates to get some precise information

            Comment

            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20569

              #36
              I was lucky in my research to discover that my cousin on my mother's side of the family, and my 2nd cousin once removed on my father's side had already done a great deal of work themselves. It's always worth keeping in touch with living relatives.

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              • Anna

                #37
                Ancestry's good - I used it a lot - but there's also Free BMD. Problem is you do sometimes want the full certs to see father's occupation, witnesses, etc. for marriage although sometimes you can find the banns, and cause of and who was present at death and of course addresses are most useful. I did find, and exchange info with, a distant cousin via Ancestry. I've also had to correct misinformation there due to dodgy transcribing or people getting their tree hopelessly confused where it interlinks with mine or just finding a birth where the names and dates tie up but it's the wrong people - a mistake often made with common surnames.

                I too have a criminal on my direct line of grandfathers! In 1843 imprisoned for larceny, sentenced to two months and a whipping - and he was only 12 years old. I guess it's lucky he wasn't sentenced to transportation. He became an ostler and spent most of his later life looking after the pit ponies.

                Edit: crossed with mercs - yes it's the precise info you often need, not just names, and like Alpie I got reams of info from cousin in America who'd been researching for many years.

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                • mangerton
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 3346

                  #38
                  Mercia, if you're fortunate enough to have Scottish ancestors, you can get information about them here.

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                  • mercia
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 8920

                    #39
                    Originally posted by mangerton View Post
                    Mercia, if you're fortunate enough to have Scottish ancestors, you can get information about them here.
                    - thanks, I may well have - there was a greatgrandfather named James Irving who sounds as if he ought to be - but he's very elusive, I know only the barest facts about him so far

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                    • Richard Tarleton

                      #40
                      Originally posted by mangerton View Post
                      Mercia, if you're fortunate enough to have Scottish ancestors, you can get information about them here.
                      Thanks for the link, mangerton. The difficulty with Scottish ancestry, if I could put it like that, is pursuing it back beyond 1855, as the website admits in the opening para. This has been our problem with my 4xgreat grandfather, c.1780-c.1839. You need to know where someone was born and baptised before you can start, unlike in England where you can find that out by searching a name. It's worse if they were Highlanders, and Jacobites....We have pursued all sorts of avenues - not helped by his having been a bit of a soldier of fortune, in Portugal and then Mexico.

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                      • mercia
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 8920

                        #41
                        I wonder if I could pick the brains of member historian and ask to what extent (if at all) the family of a soldier might accompany him on his campaigns. A very very distant ancestor of mine, Thomas Summerfield (1767-1833) was a captain later major with the 83rd Regiment of Foot and was apparently wounded and captured at the Battle of Talavera in 1809 and taken to what I believe was a famous prison at Verdun - the thing is, when one of his daughters, Mary Cecilia (born 1796), married in September 1813 the records show that the marriage took place at Verdun so I'm just wondering if she might have been tagging along with father through her childhood - or is this highly unlikely ?

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                        • teamsaint
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 25190

                          #42
                          Originally posted by mercia View Post
                          I wonder if I could pick the brains of member historian and ask to what extent (if at all) the family of a soldier might accompany him on his campaigns. A very very distant ancestor of mine, Thomas Summerfield (1767-1833) was a captain later major with the 83rd Regiment of Foot and was apparently wounded and captured at the Battle of Talavera in 1809 and taken to what I believe was a famous prison at Verdun - the thing is, when one of his daughters, Mary Cecilia (born 1796), married in September 1813 the records show that the marriage took place at Verdun so I'm just wondering if she might have been tagging along with father through her childhood - or is this highly unlikely ?
                          i'm not well versed in this Mercs, so not likely to steal Historian's thunder,but it was commonplace as far as I know.

                          The disaster in the retreat from Kabul was one example where it all went horribly wrong for the civilians attached to the military, and indeed for almost everybody.


                          One issue , probably among many, was that if a wife travelling with the army was widowed, she lost almost all ( I think) of her income, with outcomes that are easy to imagine.

                          i'll try to find a couple of books that deal with this, and give some links.
                          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                          I am not a number, I am a free man.

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                          • Anna

                            #43
                            Mercs, as teamsaint says you'll have to do a lot more digging but some wives and family always did accompany (but, of course, there were the 'camp followers').
                            In my family I have Alfred, wife and toddler setting sail 1900 on HMS Crocodile for his second stationing in India (Utter Pradesh) with 1st Hampshire Regiment. Their son George was born 1902 in Lucknow. In those days the proportion of wives allowed was higher for India, (12 out of 100 men were allowed wives), what the rules were, if any, in earlier times I don't know

                            Comment

                            • Richard Tarleton

                              #44
                              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                              i'm not well versed in this Mercs, so not likely to steal Historian's thunder,but it was commonplace as far as I know.
                              Indeed. The most famous officer's wife from the Peninsula War was Juana, a 14-year old Spanish girl rescued from certain rape at the hands of British soldiers at the siege of Badajoz by a young officer, Harry Smith. He made an honest woman out of her - they were married three days later in the presence of Wellesley [not yet Wellington] - and remained a devoted couple for the rest of their lives, which took them to India and South Africa, where she has a town named after her (Ladysmith). She followed him everywhere in Spain, and was present (nearby) at Waterloo - she scoured the battlefield for his body the next day, having been wrongly told he'd been killed (mistaken identity). General Sir Harry Smith died in 1860, Lady Juana Smith in 1872

                              As for lower ranks, it was a tradition of the British army that a handful of wives were permitted to travel with each regiment. They helped with washing, sewing and cooking, and in return were allowed to sleep with their husbands (Peter Snow, To War With Wellington). Wellesley decreed that weomen should get half a man's ration each day 'and the children a quarter, but no wine or spirits will be issued to women or children'.

                              Re merc's post, one of the best studies of the campaigns in the Peninsula War with details of regiments etc. is Jac Weller's Wellington in the Peninsula - including photos of the battlefields all of which he visited. I've been trying to trace my Scottish 4xgreat grandfather who appears to have served with the 4th Portuguese Regiment, this involves ploughing through regimental lists here. A scattering of MacDonalds and even a few Campbells amongst all the Portuguese.
                              Last edited by Guest; 19-01-16, 10:11.

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                              • mercia
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 8920

                                #45
                                thanks to all for your interesting information and help

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