Nuclear Power

[teamsaint]

The British covered up the 1957 Windscale fire far more than anything the Japanese have attempted, so if we're casting the first stone. (But I repeat myself - it's a bad habit of mine, I know. )

i'm really not casting the first stone. This just happens to be the Japanese government. I have no doubt at all that our own government would be just as bad....and the international nuclear industry has plenty of UK involvement I expect.

[Frances_iom]

i'm really not casting the first stone. This just happens to be the Japanese government. I have no doubt at all that our own government would be just as bad....and the international nuclear industry has plenty of UK involvement I expect.

there is an academic thesis which goes into most of the now ingrained misinformation re Windscale -

http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/media/universityofexeter/collegeofhumanities/history/exhistoria/volume3/4_-_Richard_Batten_Ex_Historia_2011.pdf

reading this indicates that hysterical reporting probably did more lasting damage than the 4 to 6 weeks of wasted milk production due to the cows ingesting the iodine.

Windcale was the first and the UK was invoved in the Cold war and also needed to build bridges with USA (to get access to technology) which had been damaged by Suez - the french drew other conclusions and decided they would go their own way.

[Lateralthinking1]

Corrosion - frances_iom - The points you make about the health impacts of plutonium are helpful. As for the sentence "Yes wrong - pumping sea water + overheating by lack of cooling in the associated storage ponds almost certainly meant that the reactors would never again be useful". Like the official statement, this ties the announcement on decommissioning to future usefulness of the plant and not safety. I was the first on this thread to mention corrosivity. This was commented on by johnb: "There are issues with corrosion due to salt and also with the amount of salt and calcium carbonate accumulating in the reactors (and also possibly affecting the seating of the valves) but I would guess that the people there had little choice but to do what they did. Perhaps the sodium chloride can be flushed out if they get the cooling system going. The CaCO3 is a very different matter though".

Decommissioning - Had the official statement come on the first day of the sea water being poured, it would have been clear that it concerned radiation management, even if it meant giving up on the plant's usefulness. Had it been delayed until parts had been, as is now mooted, covered with a fabric - the experts in Japan are still experimenting - it would have been seen as the consequence of both ultimate inability to control radiation and corrosion, Coming now, it is political. It implies that it is all about practical usefulness. Radiation's an entirely separate matter that is being dealt with while they apply the fabricated veil.

Concrete - Cambridge are saying that the idea of a concrete sarcophagus was wide of the mark. Components will be placed in concrete and removed. Of course, this will remove the prospect of entombment photos in the media. (My choice of words may sound emotive but Prof King constantly appeals to wavering Greens in his study by referring to a "holistic" nuclear approach and a "2011 renaissance" while the tonnes of plutonium that no one can agree what to do with are "legacy materials").

A few genuine questions for the experts - Do you think there are prospects of some of the parts in concrete being transported ultimately to Cumbria? Are there likely to be discussions taking place behind the scenes in Government and BNFL about this now?
And could you comment on the levels of radiation currently being detected in Britain compared with the levels of radiation that affected sheep farming in Wales after Chernobyl? Thanks - Lat. (Sorry to sound dogmatic but I have a terrier like character. )

[Frances_iom]

(Sorry to sound dogmatic but I have a terrier like character. )

since you are out of work and appear to have disturbed nights judging from times of posts might I suggest that you have plenty of time to research - just stick to academic and gov sites rather than the blogosphere - there is plenty about chernobyl and its dump of particles deposited by a rain shower over northern England and the Manx hills.
Iodine with its very short half life was the major problem but the 8day half life ensures that any contamination is quickly contained - giving Iodide tablets would have avoided the thyroid cancers arround Chernobyl as very young children are susceptible - the milk in the Windscale fire was fine for adults (and probably could have safely been used for confectionery as the radio isotope would have decayed to one millionth after 6months however it is the scare stories in the press (now made much worse by totally uninformed web posts and reposts) that cause the major problems. Considerably more harm was done by Thatcher allowing an american company to cut costs in processing offal that landed up as protein feeds for cows.

[amateur51]

since you are out of work and appear to have disturbed nights judging from times of posts might I suggest that you have plenty of time to research - just stick to academic and gov sites rather than the blogosphere - there is plenty about chernobyl and its dump of particles deposited by a rain shower over northern England and the Manx hills.
.

Any particular reason for omitting the impact of Chernobyl on North Wales, frances?

"In North Wales, of the 5,100 holdings and 2,000,000 sheep originally placed under restriction following the accident, 359 holdings and 180,000 sheep remain within the restricted areas."

http://www.food.gov.uk/wales/safetyhygienewales/chernobylmonwales

[Lateralthinking1]

frances - OK. Yes, I would say I have disturbing nights rather than disturbed nights. As for the daytimes, absolutely gruesome.

Do you think there are prospects of some of the parts in concrete being transported ultimately to Cumbria? Are there likely to be discussions taking place behind the scenes in Government and BNFL about this now? And could you comment on the levels of radiation currently being detected in Britain compared with the levels of radiation that affected sheep farming in Wales after Chernobyl? Thanks - Lat.

[Frances_iom]

Any particular reason for omitting the impact of Chernobyl on North Wales, frances?

no - maybe my login name helps ?

[Lateralthinking1]

Has Jeremy Clarkson replaced his fence yet? I heard that when the wind blows, it has a habit of disappearing?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

thorium:

one

two

and three again, it is happening now...

[Frances_iom]

Has Jeremy Clarkson replaced his fence yet? I heard that when the wind blows, it has a habit of disappearing?

many would hope JC would also blow away - anyway after the Deemster rejected all his new grounds for appeal the appeal on the inspector's decision re the path can go ahead (tho I guess JC's advocate was thinking that her pension pot was doing very well) - mindyou the last BBC well known name landed up being housed at my (+ other Manx taxpayers) expense for some weeks.

[Lateralthinking1]

Interesting. Do you know the Callows in Union Mills? Nice family.

[Frances_iom]

Interesting. Do you know the Callows in Union Mills? Nice family.

possibly - there are 30,000+ households on Island and Callow is quite a common name - Union Mills is not part of my social scene other than passing thru on bus.

To return to your sheep - http://www.port.ac.uk/departments/ac...d,76965,en.pdf
indicates that the upland sheep were already significantly towards imposed low limit before Chernobyl due to ground based nuclear tests + possibly for Cumberland Windscale tho the authors seem to imply this was more likely for the coastal regions - as there are no reported cancer hotspots or apparent increases due to lamb consumption that have been reported (+ stand up to analysis) for the 30+yrs pre 1986 I suspect the limit is set much too low - see the 'rant' by Dominic Lawson http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7107220.ece

[amateur51]

no - maybe my login name helps ?

Ah right ...

England.

And they wonder why we're wary of people from England

[Lateralthinking1]

Well, you see, here we find some common ground. I had a minor Eyjafjallajokull role (try saying that after a couple of glasses of sherry). I would wholly defend the initial policy in the circumstances. However, he is absolutely right to suggest that lessons should be learnt from serious incidents immediately, not in the middle of a similar series of events. If and where there are obvious tests that can be undertaken following a serious incident, they must be carried out quickly, The results should be well-publicised in a form that can be understood even by an average traveller to Torremolinos, then suitable preparations should be made for the next one.

vCJD goes to show how Government Chief Scientists can be wrong. If you were the Chief Scientist and simply worried about the media, you could dull all the sensationalism down a bit without saying what you really thought. He must have believed wholeheartedly in the risk to say that it could reach half a million by the end of the 20th century. In a sense, this is my concern about Prof King. They can get it very wrong too. But the main point is surely that vCJD outbreaks are rare. We have a lot of new data. Are necessary tests being undertaken so that next time we can be more measured in our response? CRB. I completely agree with him. Ludicrous. You could add the initial overly sweeping dangerous dogs legislation, cigarettes now being placed under counters, scares about grapefruit and aspirin and quite a lot more. Where there are obvious statistics in support of an action - ie 20mph speed zones to counteract death and injury at 30mph - I support them.

I am probably persuaded, just about, by your sheep article. I don't see why some of this can't be stuck in the Mirror or the Express so that we can have a sensible discussion about tolerable levels of radiation. I'm sure the farmers would appreciate that now unless there is a chance of something much worse here arriving from Japan. There is still some nagging doubt in my mind about Wales though. That surely wouldn't have been partially about Windscale? And it doesn't alter my feelings about the risks overall of nuclear power. Rather, it puts into some perspective what has happened here to date.

[Frances_iom]

Well, you see, here we find some common ground.....

finally got round to reading my free copy of yesterday's Times (not a paper I'd pay any more for) but David Aaronovitch has another rant at the inability of people to take rational decisions - particularly aimed at Clegg + the german greens - strange combination but easy targets being a near rightwing tory + a bunch of idiots but in key positions of influence