Nuclear Power

[johnb]

I suspect that one of the benefits of locating power stations on the coast is so that sea water can be used in the cooling systems rather than having to have huge cooling towers. (This, of course, is not water used in the reactor itself or the spent fuel ponds, etc.)

No doubt there were also politic reasons, etc..

I have no idea whether, or to what extent, considerations of the possibility of nuclear incidents at the plants also played a part.

Historically, in the UK, coal fired power stations were mostly located in, or close to, the major coal fields, or in places where there were good transport links to the coal fields.

[Lateralthinking1]

johnb - Thanks. We are both interested members of the public but I think we reveal here (inadvertently) what Government and the industry need to do. There should be far greater explanation of the safety angles.

The public probably don't want all the technical details but some basic technological descriptions, reasons why the new generation is safer, reasons for location, information about shareholders, managers' qualifications, regularity of checks and assessments. More of this is needed and less of the hard sell. - Lat.

[Bryn]

In the case of Wylfa, the sea water an essential coolant at all times (though not directly, of course). The consequent warming of the sea in the vicinity helps increase the crustacean population.

[MrGongGong]

The siting of some gas-cooled reactors inland, ie Heysham, .

tell that to the people of Heysham then .
Oh look they have moved the sea so that its closer

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/19/14/1191478_f7729ea5.jpg

Mr Lateral
as I said before i'm not 100% convinced by any of the arguments for or against
BUT
you seem to have so little grasp of things that i'm inclined to disregard your posts altogether !

When i was at school we learned about the siting of power stations
they need to have lots of WATER
thats why they are either by the sea or a river
now Dungeness might be on the north coast of Scotland to be as far away from London as possible so that the evil elves can do their satanic experiments in peace ? but

they are ALL by the sea or a major river
i guess you have never been to the Trent then ? lots of coal fired power stations by the river
but conspiracy theories are much more convenient

so first we have an insistence on using the (obsolete) Richter scale
and now
we have the PORT of Heysham moved inland


please do some research (and I don't mean a quick Google and glance at Wikepedia !) then you might have SOME credibility !

[johnb]

now Dungeness might be on the north coast of Scotland

Well, it might be I suppose

[MrGongGong]

Well, it might be I suppose

who knows indeed
and Dounreay might be in Kent !

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, I thought that I would slip that one in to ensure that people were reading my comments. No, actually I was wrong. My apologies. Now wait for a politician to say that.

We are not though talking just water Mr GG. We all know that many nuclear plants across the world are inland, particularly in larger countries, and mainly by rivers. There are one or two in the States that are in areas as dry as a bone.

But the point was about the salt in sea. Is there any point in having them by the sea if salt water is far less effective? Or is it that everyone lines them all up on the far reaches of their lands to try to ensure that only foreigners might get a lethal dose?

Incidentally, Dungeness is not among the sites proposed for the next wave of British - sorry, French EDF (85% French Government subsidy) - reactors, nor is the other site in Kent that was considered, as it happens inland.

[MrGongGong]

in my car there is a HEAT EXCHANGER
ok
not new technology really (there's a wonderful one at the Edradour distillery where a stream runs through a trough with a copper coil in it which turns it back into a rather wonderful liquid)............ the water used to cool things doesn't have to come into physical contact with the thing its cooling........ even with my O level physics this is self evident

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, but - it's a bit like a tennis rally this, isn't it? - the Japanese are spraying the stuff from helicopters. It isn't just about what is needed when the thing works but also when it potentially could wipe out three quarters of a country.

[Bryn]

Indeed, MrGG, hence my earlier comment about sea water not being used as a direct coolant. The first heat exchange medium in many nuclear installations is liquid sodium. Just think what would happen if that came into direct contact with water (with or without salt in it).

[Lateralthinking1]

It is being sprayed from helicopters into installations which have defects that are not wholly understood by the experts. It is chuck it down and hope.

[Bryn]

It is being sprayed from helicopters into installations which have defects that are not wholly understood by the experts. It is chuck it down and hope.

Which I see as being far preferable, in this situation, to failing to try such methods and being pretty sure of a hopeless runaway.

[johnb]

My understanding (which might be wrong) is that most of the helicopter drops and the spraying was to urgently replenish the water in the Spent Fuel Pools rather than cooling the reactor core.

[Edit]
PS Estimates of the heat generated in the SFPs are

No 1......70 kW
No 2....465 kW
No 3....233 kW
No 4..1860 kW (this SFP contains the entire core of reactor 4, as well as spent fuel assemblies)
etc

(Hopefully I have done the conversions from 1,000kcal/hour correctly.)

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/4008511524/more-on-spent-fuel-pools-at-fukushima

[Frances_iom]

My understanding (which might be wrong) is that most of the helicopter drops and the spraying was to urgently replenish the water in the Spent Fuel Pools rather than cooling the reactor core.

That would appear to be the case - the spent rods need cooling whilst allowing the shortlived isotopes to decay after which they are easier to handle - it would appaer that the fires started in these pools as the water boiled off - the zirconium cladding got hot enough to oxidise releasing hydrogen which accumulated then exploded caused the damage to the outer containment roof + walls.

Tonight's R3 essay just finished on the internet had a few side swipes at paranonia as amplified by the nature of the web - in miniture illustrated in this thread.
Maybe if posters are unfamiliar with science or engineering they might be familiar with geography - Dounreay is the now closed and almost dismantled site at the far north of Scotland (does it still have its now somewhat dated visitor centre?), Heysham sits 20m from the river and about 400m from the port. The more interesting case is Didcot where the locals were happy to have a nuclear station (think where one of the main research labs is) but got a messy coal powered station miles from any coalfield

[Lateralthinking1]

In miniature? Paranoia? I don't think so. I can't stand London but I would rather be there now with the huge threat of terrorism (we've been told this repeatedly for a decade) than in Tokyo. Call me weird to be observing a little local difficulty that the cruel news media have had the temerity to lead on for, oh, a whole seven days.

You have to wonder though, don't you, when a few brave souls are running around for weeks like headless chickens, while the rest of their country turns off the taps and holds its breath. And it's funny isn't it? When there is a famine in some far flung corner, armies of people with experience in humanitarian aid rush to the scene. Here, all the planes flying in to Japan with the world's nuclear experts on board are conspicuously absent. No solutions to offer or just simply "no way we are going there"?

I have an exceedingly good knowledge of British geography. I am not hugely familiar with Lancashire (I'm more white rose than red). On Heysham, I went on the basis of a not very clear map. Didcot is not yet fully out of the nuclear mire. One wonders if your comment is a punt at fusion in the light (or darkness) of the Fukushima crisis. The greens there were even on board at one point, carried away by the climate change hysteria, but this may change.

As is your right, you have not confirmed your interest. My guess is that you work in or with the nuclear industry.