West Coast Jazz / Shelly Manne & Andre Previn

[Ian Thumwood]

My Dad has been snapping up the recent re-issues on Avid where the label offer "four classic" LPs on two CD's. The recordings must represent the first appearance of a lot of this material on CD and the results offer a mixture of genuine classic recordings with others where their obscurity seems well deserved. At the moment I've been listening to one of these records in my car and this is a selection of records made by Shelly Manne.

Manne seems almost forgotten these days but he was still regarded as one of the great drummers in jazz when I was getting in to the music. The 4 CD's offer a combination of music written by Henry Mancini for the Peter Gunn TV series. Once you get past the over-played theme tune, the music is quite good and I love the fact that Victor Feldman plays marimba as well as vibes. These days the West Coast players are looked down upon and it is fair to say that the music has dated somewhat and lacks the hard edge of the kind of jazz that a label like Blue Note was putting out at the same time. I sometimes feel that the West Coast movement wasn't quite as modern as it thought it was and some kind of extension of swing. That said, I quite like this record.

I haven't got to playing the second disc which features the German pianist Andre Previn. I can't ever recollect ever hearing his playing or at least it leaving any favourable impression on me. Just as Manne's involvement with TV music somewhat distracts from his jazz credentials, I always sensed that Previn was a classical musician who dabbled in jazz and never really plunged that deep in to the music. It will be interesting to see how the later tracks on this CD change my opinion.

By and large, if I had to plump for a "classic" West Coast jazz it would be Shorty Roger's "Cool and crazy" which sums up exactly what the music was about. It seems a mixture of Miles' BoftC band and Basie and the charts are staggeringly effective. They have a quality about them where the arrangements must have seemed instantly classic - helped , to some degree, by the imaginative and effective titles. However, a lot of the smaller West Coast groups seem a bit polite and the soloists interchangeable. They always seem quite bright and breezy and it seemed wholly appropriate that one of the pianists should have been called Pete Jolly for that is exactly how the music sounds. It has a sunny quality about it.

It would be interesting to see which albums would be considered "essential" from the West Coast movement and to see which of the musicians have left a more lasting impression. I've always liked Bud Shank myself.

[clive heath]

Pete Jolly is the pianist on Art Pepper's "Smack Up". Jollity is not a quality you associate with Art!

Andre Previn's "My Fair Lady" with Shelley Manne and Leroy Vinnegar is one of the great trio jazz records.

The 4 LP set of Shelley Manne and his quintet at the Black Hawk is reckoned to be one of the top live sessions (with trumpeter Joe Gordon, tenor saxophonist Richie Kamuca, pianist Victor Feldman, and bassist Monty Budwig).

West Coast Jazz can be very smooth and the fluency can sometimes conceal the imagination and versatility of the players and arrangers. I hope your exploration yields many delights.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Pete Jolly is the pianist on Art Pepper's "Smack Up". Jollity is not a quality you associate with Art!

Andre Previn's "My Fair Lady" with Shelley Manne and Leroy Vinnegar is one of the great trio jazz records.

The 4 LP set of Shelley Manne and his quintet at the Black Hawk is reckoned to be one of the top live sessions (with trumpeter Joe Gordon, tenor saxophonist Richie Kamuca, pianist Victor Feldman, and bassist Monty Budwig).

East Coast Jazz can be very smooth and the fluency can sometimes conceal the imagination and versatility of the players and arrangers. I hope your exploration yields many delights.

Agree about Pepper but I think the West Coast thing can be greatly misleading. Hawes, Harold Land, Curtis Counce (a hell of a band) , Carl Perkins etc all worked on the coast. Les Mccann for all his later failings. ...Curtis Amy, Joe Maini...Frank Butler was as hip as Philly Joe....and don't forget Mulligan was originally "East Coast" as was Shelly. I was listening to Jimmy Guffrie's "Ad Lib" album recently and that kicks along with Laurance Marable, Lou Levy etc.



BN.

The Previn Avid set is interesting/amusing for when he comes on like Junior Mance! But there's some really nice ballad playing on some of his Contemporary sides. He had the chops if sounding facile.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Previn is as Hollywood as they come Ian ... emigre

My Fair Lady has had most of the attention, but Pal Joey is a gem ... both were in the family radiogram [along with Shorty Courts the Count] and remind me of my late sister ...

there was a major, interesting and diverse music scene on the west coast around Oakland LA and the Bay/SF ... Witherspoon McShann to add to Bluesnix's listing, all the usual suspects but some very interesting free jazz in the late fifties [Coleman] and these guys

[rauschwerk]

I haven't got to playing the second disc which features the German pianist Andre Previn. I can't ever recollect ever hearing his playing or at least it leaving any favourable impression on me. Just as Manne's involvement with TV music somewhat distracts from his jazz credentials, I always sensed that Previn was a classical musician who dabbled in jazz and never really plunged that deep in to the music. It will be interesting to see how the later tracks on this CD change my opinion.

There's no doubt that Previn takes that branch of his art as seriously as any other, and indeed he was dismissive of other un-named classical musicians who merely dabbled in jazz. That he was in the all-white group who recorded the first jazz LP to sell a million copies (My Fair Lady) probably counted against him in some quarters, of course. But highly reputable musicians such as Ray Brown were happy to make music with him.

[elmo]

There's no doubt that Previn takes that branch of his art as seriously as any other, and indeed he was dismissive of other un-named classical musicians who merely dabbled in jazz. That he was in the all-white group who recorded the first jazz LP to sell a million copies (My Fair Lady) probably counted against him in some quarters, of course. But highly reputable musicians such as Ray Brown were happy to make music with him.

My fair lady - "all white group" that would be news to Leroy Vinnegar.........

Elmo

[rauschwerk]

My fair lady - "all white group" that would be news to Leroy Vinnegar.........

Elmo

Oh dear - apologies!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Oh dear - apologies!

Alyns excellent little programs on Central Avenue with Teddy Edwards covered some interesting ground at least in terms of black musicians. I read somewhere a suggestion that studio work led to/influenced some of the more effete white "West Coast" work?

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yep

...with Vic Feldman on vibes you could almost be in Gerard St ...

[Ian Thumwood]

Having listening to the Shelly Manne CD with the trios featuring Andre Previn I would have to say that he is a baffling pianist. There seems to be an element of Oscar Peterson about his approach even if he does seem a bit zippier - no doubt aided by Manne's drumming which I feel is exceptional. In fact, the pleasure with which Manne performs when Previn throws him so rather asymmetric phrases to exchange with immediately made me think that the drummer would have loved to have performed with some of the jazz groups around today. He would have fitted in perfectly. The element I am unsure about with these two trio remains the piano playing. There are moments when he sounds inspired and there is a strong tendency to use modulations and dissonance to spice up the music that illustrates a degree of musical intelligence beyond most of his contemporaries. I really feel that his playing suggest a precursor to the sophistication of Bill Evans whilst retaining the drive of a well-mannered Bud Powell.

The slower tracks work better for me. I feel Previn is more convincing on these efforts whereas the faster tracks tend to show him up a technically brilliant yet limited in his improvisatory ideas. There is a tendency for him to play 4 bars phrases which he then responses to. Frequently I felt he would pick up a motif which would then be modulated identically on the next chord change. He sounds very predictable at fast tempi and there were several times when it was possible to predict his next phrase.

Whilst I can appreciate his technique and admire Previn's swing, I feel that there is something a bit false about his jazz work. It is the kind of jazz produced by people who will not necessarily come from the jazz audience and substitutes bravado for emotion. I felt that Previn was almost a facsimile of a jazz musician in that he could swing mightily, understood that you need harmonic skills to make the music interesting and was smart enough to understand that the music would be improved by the use of well thought out arrangements yet the overall result seemed a tad too polite. Technically he sounds superior to most of his 1950's contemporaries and the arrangements are clever and display musical intelligence. However, the music is rather pat and even if you take in to consideration the fact that the 1950's were a decade when the piano trio was perhaps the most conservative field in jazz performance, I wouldn't swap these performances for anything by Powell, Monk, Tristano or Nichols and there are plenty of other pianists from red Garland, Wynton Kelly and Hampton Hawes who were far more convincing.

[Tom Audustus]

Having listening to the Shelly Manne CD with the trios featuring Andre Previn I would have to say that he is a baffling pianist. There seems to be an element of Oscar Peterson about his approach even if he does seem a bit zippier - no doubt aided by Manne's drumming which I feel is exceptional. In fact, the pleasure with which Manne performs when Previn throws him so rather asymmetric phrases to exchange with immediately made me think that the drummer would have loved to have performed with some of the jazz groups around today. He would have fitted in perfectly. The element I am unsure about with these two trio remains the piano playing. There are moments when he sounds inspired and there is a strong tendency to use modulations and dissonance to spice up the music that illustrates a degree of musical intelligence beyond most of his contemporaries. I really feel that his playing suggest a precursor to the sophistication of Bill Evans whilst retaining the drive of a well-mannered Bud Powell.

The slower tracks work better for me. I feel Previn is more convincing on these efforts whereas the faster tracks tend to show him up a technically brilliant yet limited in his improvisatory ideas. There is a tendency for him to play 4 bars phrases which he then responses to. Frequently I felt he would pick up a motif which would then be modulated identically on the next chord change. He sounds very predictable at fast tempi and there were several times when it was possible to predict his next phrase.

Whilst I can appreciate his technique and admire Previn's swing, I feel that there is something a bit false about his jazz work. It is the kind of jazz produced by people who will not necessarily come from the jazz audience and substitutes bravado for emotion. I felt that Previn was almost a facsimile of a jazz musician in that he could swing mightily, understood that you need harmonic skills to make the music interesting and was smart enough to understand that the music would be improved by the use of well thought out arrangements yet the overall result seemed a tad too polite. Technically he sounds superior to most of his 1950's contemporaries and the arrangements are clever and display musical intelligence. However, the music is rather pat and even if you take in to consideration the fact that the 1950's were a decade when the piano trio was perhaps the most conservative field in jazz performance, I wouldn't swap these performances for anything by Powell, Monk, Tristano or Nichols and there are plenty of other pianists from red Garland, Wynton Kelly and Hampton Hawes who were far more convincing.

Here is Oscar Peterson and Previn playing a blues on TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAxBAEb2pmE

[amateur51]

Here is Oscar Peterson and Previn playing a blues on TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAxBAEb2pmE

I may not know much about jazz but I do know what I like

Many thanks for the link to this wonderful music-making

[Ian Thumwood]

Tom

That is a very interesting clip and , to my ears, Previn edges it over Peterson from an interest point of view even if the latter's heavier touch often drowns out the former's contribution. Piano duos are a bit of an acquired taste and require restraint on behalf of both performers. Peterson's dominant style tends to suffocate his musical partners and this seems born out by the clip. Perhaps more than any other performer Peterson demonstrated that a fabulous technique doesn't necessary equate to being a great jazz musician. For me, Peterson was best as a lone soloist or in duet with someone like Milt Jackson.

It is fascinating seeing Previn play jazz on video. He has a brilliant technique and certainly seeing the visual images emphasizes the crispness of his playing. In some respects watching him play reminded me a lot of the great Teddy Wilson. That said, there is no emotional element in this performance. He is playing a blues but might as well be playing scales. You can appreciate why this appeals to an audience coming from a classical background and I fully understand amateur51's affection for this kind of jazz. I can totally appreciate why it has an appeal. Of the two pianists in the clip, I prefer Previn to Peterson as he is more adventurous and I prefer the way he twists the harmony to the conservatism of Peterson which seemed to think that jazz died sometime before Charlie Parker. If I am honest, Previn sounds like someone who has come from the Classical background whilst absorbing how the mechanics of jazz works but not like someone coming naturally out of the tradition. There is a background music element about his playing which I feel is a bit unfortunate and the propensity to largely perform show tunes also diminishes my personal interest in what he is about.

It would be interesting to have heard either pianist in a duet with a less sympathetic pianist or someone who would have pushed them into a tighter corner. Of the two, Previn sounds better equipped to have coped with something untoward yet it seems odd that the jazz albums by him on Amazon are all with trios. Did he ever record with horns?

As I've said before, the 1950's was probably one of the most conservative decades in jazz in some respects and I wouldn't equate either Peterson or Previn as defining what was best in jazz piano in that particular oeuvre. If anything, I would have to say that Nat "king" Cole was far more appealing and successful as a jazz pianist - he is probably the best comparison for both Peterson and Previn and, I would say, a more convincing jazz performer despite his ultimate lack of interest and sacrificing his piano artistry for popular appeal as a singer.

[amateur51]

Tom

That is a very interesting clip and , to my ears, Previn edges it over Peterson from an interest point of view even if the latter's heavier touch often drowns out the former's contribution. Piano duos are a bit of an acquired taste and require restraint on behalf of both performers. Peterson's dominant style tends to suffocate his musical partners and this seems born out by the clip. Perhaps more than any other performer Peterson demonstrated that a fabulous technique doesn't necessary equate to being a great jazz musician. For me, Peterson was best as a lone soloist or in duet with someone like Milt Jackson.

It is fascinating seeing Previn play jazz on video. He has a brilliant technique and certainly seeing the visual images emphasizes the crispness of his playing. In some respects watching him play reminded me a lot of the great Teddy Wilson. That said, there is no emotional element in this performance. He is playing a blues but might as well be playing scales. You can appreciate why this appeals to an audience coming from a classical background and I fully understand amateur51's affection for this kind of jazz. I can totally appreciate why it has an appeal. Of the two pianists in the clip, I prefer Previn to Peterson as he is more adventurous and I prefer the way he twists the harmony to the conservatism of Peterson which seemed to think that jazz died sometime before Charlie Parker. If I am honest, Previn sounds like someone who has come from the Classical background whilst absorbing how the mechanics of jazz works but not like someone coming naturally out of the tradition. There is a background music element about his playing which I feel is a bit unfortunate and the propensity to largely perform show tunes also diminishes my personal interest in what he is about.

It would be interesting to have heard either pianist in a duet with a less sympathetic pianist or someone who would have pushed them into a tighter corner. Of the two, Previn sounds better equipped to have coped with something untoward yet it seems odd that the jazz albums by him on Amazon are all with trios. Did he ever record with horns?

As I've said before, the 1950's was probably one of the most conservative decades in jazz in some respects and I wouldn't equate either Peterson or Previn as defining what was best in jazz piano in that particular oeuvre. If anything, I would have to say that Nat "king" Cole was far more appealing and successful as a jazz pianist - he is probably the best comparison for both Peterson and Previn and, I would say, a more convincing jazz performer despite his ultimate lack of interest and sacrificing his piano artistry for popular appeal as a singer.

Very interesting observations Ian Thumwood, thank you.

Who would you recommend that I should listen to, in addition to Nat 'King' Cole.

It's deeply saddening to realise that it was Nat's commitment to cigarettes that ended his wonderful music-making career far too soon.

[Ian Thumwood]

Amateur

Since we are on a thread about West Coast jazz perhaps you should check out Hampton Hawes. When I first got in to the music it was his album "The green leaves of autumn" that completely bowled me over. I love the swing and earthiness of his playing as well as the fact that he really knew how to play the blues. I never felt this was the case with Peterson.

If you like Previn and Peterson, the two obvious pianists to explore would be Nat king Cole and Teddy Wilson. I also like players such as Red Garland and Wynton Kelly from the 1950's but, to my ears, jazz piano really came in to it's own in the 1960's with the likes of Herbie Hancock. Another pianist who made his reputation on the West Coast was Paul Bley who is seriously over-looked but the total opposite of Peterson in his approach. The pianists are the real heroes of jazz and if you go back as far as Jelly Roll Morton and continue in to today's musicians like Jason Moran, you will hear some of the best jazz recorded. I would also strongly recommend Keith Jarrett's trio as he has enjoyed a similar, combined jazz and classical career like Previn and also primarily worked in a trio format. If you like jazz standards and show tunes, no one quite excels in this field like Jarrett. my own favourite is "The out of towners" which I think you would love.

It's funny how Classical music fans latch on to elements of jazz piano that are opposed to how some jazz fans see the same instrument. I can see why Classical fans might hate someone like Thelonious Monk whereas jazz fans would tend to overlook the absence of a Previn-esuqe technique for the shear originality and good-naturedness of the music.