Why don't jazzers record pop tunes any more?

[cloughie]

An interesting thread which nicely brings out personal preferences and views as well as some broad statements. Interesting that some of the contemporary songwriters mentioned includes material which is 30-50 years old! I can't think of much 'pop' since the turn of the century which would be worthy of becoming a jazz standard, maybe the odd Keane or KT Tunstall. Stevie Wonder mentioned as been jazz influenced - yes but since the innovative stuff he did in the seventies what has he created in recent years? Michael Jackson - genius or not? - would he have been as good without the influences of eg Quincy Jones? the black/white argument needs to be tempered with several shades of grey as evolution of the music has seen black musicians influencing white and vice versa over the years. An aside - anyone had a listen to June Tabor's Ashore album - good voice and some good piano from Huw Warren.

[MrGongGong]

White rock music seems to be more about making a statement than looking at how the music is assembled.

Can, Neu, Laibach, Rammstein..... ? and so on

Not all "white rock music" is based on the blues

Rather a lot of opinion masquerading as fact around here methinks

(And Improvised music and 'jazz' aren't the same thing at all)

[Beef Oven!]

Can, Neu, Laibach, Rammstein..... ? and so on

Not all "white rock music" is based on the blues

Rather a lot of opinion masquerading as fact around here methinks

(And Improvised music and 'jazz' aren't the same thing at all)

But it's not as good as black music

[Paul Campbell]

Perhaps the decline of the importance of melody in much contemporary music is a key factor. Listening to commercial pop radio in the office over the last few days has been a bit of an eye (or ear) opener. I sound like my dad, watching TOTP in the seventies, and complaining of the lack of a “decent tune nowadays”, but it really does seem to me that there is precious little melodically / harmonically to improvise over anyway.

Also, I get a strong sense that modern pop music is fragmented into far more sub-genres and is targeted at a specific audience more than ever before. Perhaps I don’t get it because, at 54, I’m not supposed to.

Interesting too, I think, that after going as far as he did in his Agharta / Pangea period, Miles returned to contemporary pop standards (Human Nature, Time After Time etc). I like to think that this was about more than money making.

[cloughie]

Perhaps the decline of the importance of melody in much contemporary music is a key factor. Listening to commercial pop radio in the office over the last few days has been a bit of an eye (or ear) opener. I sound like my dad, watching TOTP in the seventies, and complaining of the lack of a “decent tune nowadays”, but it really does seem to me that there is precious little melodically / harmonically to improvise over anyway.

Also, I get a strong sense that modern pop music is fragmented into far more sub-genres and is targeted at a specific audience more than ever before. Perhaps I don’t get it because, at 54, I’m not supposed to.

Interesting too, I think, that after going as far as he did in his Agharta / Pangea period, Miles returned to contemporary pop standards (Human Nature, Time After Time etc). I like to think that this was about more than money making.

The top 100 of 1965 might give Jazzers more tunes to work around.

http://www.addlong.co.uk/UK-Hits/1965top.html

[burning dog]

Well, the Rolling Stone magazine clearly finds white Pop superior going by their top 10 and if Marvin Gaye 's What's going on? was about what's going on in the local cinema, rather than Vietnam, I doubt he would be in there. I don't think they have a prejudice against "Poppy" stuff as the Beach Boys are number two.

Oh and of course,there's the Clash with "London Calling" well up there, so no punk album either then!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well, the Rolling Stone magazine clearly finds white Pop superior going by their top 10 and if Marvin Gaye 's What's going on? was about what's going on in the local cinema, rather than Vietnam, I doubt he would be in there. I don't think they have a prejudice against "Poppy" stuff as the Beach Boys are number two.

Oh and of course,there's the Clash with "London Calling" well up there, so no punk album either then!

The glorious Rolando Kirkski did a lot of black tunes of his day....Motown, Philly Soul, but they came out...ROLANDO.

BN.

Roland's album "Blacknuss"...mad bad and dangerous to blow.

[burning dog]

The glorious Rolando Kirkski did a lot of black tunes of his day....Motown, Philly Soul, but they came out...ROLANDO.

BN.

I love this one

[burning dog]

and by the prefab four

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well as the late but not quite forgotten Benny Green would aver, jazz was based on the popular song; and many of its early pratitioners wrote popular songs .. Basie and Ellington had hits

the separation in material is like a long running fissure Ellington wanted to write music that would reflect rather more than a pop ditty might .... Miles finding edited improvisations and emergent thematic material helped a lot with the royalties [never underestimate the $$$ factor in royalties] and increasing his audience size and record sales and lo there was fusion upon us and it was a wonder ...

thanks Duncan for the Radiohead connection, stronger than many with jazz in terms of reference and use of material ... is pop music about songs any more? it is about videos and stars and a different demographic ....

the fascinating development for me is that everything is now archived in digital format, an artists is now represented for all time in digital format ... pop ditties might look a bit less attractive to an aspiring titan of the saxophone these days? .....

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

It is a good point to suggest that pop music is not about songs any more. I rarely listen to pop music and if I do, it is usually after following a comment by a jazz musician. There seems to be a lot of coveversions these days.

As far as Miles is concerned, whether if you ever read his autobiography written with quincy Troupe. Not a great or insightful book but can recall reading just how much Miles was in to pop in the 1980's as he sought to remain relevant. There was a good article on "All about jazz" regarding this a few years back where it was suggested that Miles' purusit of pop credibility ensured he was divorced from where jazz was heading in the 1980's with dire consequences for his later legacy. Albums like "You're under arrest" don't seem so cool now. There was a great quote in the article where Miles encounter John Cage waiting at an ariport and his overtures to the avant garde composer where met with derision because of how his was dressed and his efforts to be too cool. I think Cage knew that Miles was living off past credits by that stage albeit John Scofield made a comment in one of Alyn's interviews where he suggested that Miles' band anticipated the Jam Band scene of the next decade. Scofield is a great inerviewee I feel and I respect his comments, especially as he played with Miles. That said, a band like Medeski, Martin & Wood seem to take the groove element from funk and mix it with free[-ish jazz as opposed to covering pop tunes even if a number of efforts by the likes of Bob Marley have crept in from time to time. A band like The Bad Plus covered far more pop material in their early days and having heard them do this live, it was far more restrictive than their more creative, original material. Jazz versions of pop material frequently pall significantly against the source material where the original has been wrapped up in a distinctive arrangement.

[Tenor Freak]

Well I'm still wondering what Tenor Freak found interesting about McCaslin's version - extracting gold from dross? It seems to stick fairly closely to the original, but obviously the drumming is an "addition".

I linked to the McCaslin version of Alpha and Omega as an example of what may be achieved by a jazz group playing contemporary material not originally intended for improvisation. I like it, but I do prefer the Boards of Canada original for its epic sweep. My "extracting gold from dross" comment was about jazz covers of pop tunes in general. (Not that I consider Boards of Canada to be a pop act but they are contemporary and their music seems to attract a lot of interest from younger jazz players.)

Here is another jazz cover of a BOC classic, which I think works very well in a EST sort of way:

Some nice bass playing on this one...

[MrGongGong]

I would like to add another dimension to this topic and that is that black popular music is far superior to white artists and the music of Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, etc easily converts in to jazz and will continue to do so because of it's quality. .

Classic nonsense indeed

The music you mention "converts" (???) to what YOU think of as "Jazz" because thats part of its context already which has nothing whatsoever to do with "quality" or are you really suggesting that only music of "quality and distinction" can become Jazz ???
For someone who says they listen to very little 'pop' music you seem to have developed very strong opinions about it ?? (maybe using the famous University of Wood "Stockhausen" listening strategy ? )

[Ian Thumwood]

Gonger

Read my earlier comments. My point is that jazz musicians are, by and large, going to be listening to music that is interesting because of a good melody, interesting harmony or a groove that intrigues. There is f*ck all chance that they will be checking out whoever the latest boy band of the moment is. As Caulm said, modern pop has little to do with great songwriting or even music in some cases. The music will have to have something going for it to be picked up by jazz musicians although I grant you that some musicians have been enthusiastic about stuff whose appeal misses me. I have pop records in my collection of CDs but most have some connection to jazz whether it is EW & F, Sting fronting a band with Branford on tenor or something covered by a jazz musician I appreciate and wanted to explore the source.


I'm surprised that you contest that it has been Black artists who have dominated and shaped 20th century popular music. This has been the case since the blues boom in the early 1920's after which jazz played a big part in popular music. Even when fans started to champion the likes of Benny Goodman as "king of Swing" little did they realise that he had employed the services of Fletcher Henderson , edgar Sampson and Jimmy Munday who had pioneered the same music 5-10 years earlier. If you skip forward to the likes of Elvis Presley in the 1950's he could not have produced what he did without borrowing heavily from Black american culture.

I grant you that there have been many white popular artists in pop music who I admire and have little to do with jazz (Bjork, Kate Buch, etc) but as an aggregate it remains black popular culture that dictates and shapes the broader picture. Not only that, but it also seems to endure longer when their white counterparts have often faded in to obsurity. Black popular culture seems to have a legacy that their white counterpart5s can't achieve whether it is country blues from the delta in the 20s or classic Blue Note recordings in the 50's and 60's. I find it sad that some people fail to accept that Black individuals have dominated certain fields whether it is jazz, popular music or sport.

[Beef Oven!]

Gonger

Read my earlier comments. My point is that jazz musicians are, by and large, going to be listening to music that is interesting because of a good melody, interesting harmony or a groove that intrigues. There is f*ck all chance that they will be checking out whoever the latest boy band of the moment is. As Caulm said, modern pop has little to do with great songwriting or even music in some cases. The music will have to have something going for it to be picked up by jazz musicians although I grant you that some musicians have been enthusiastic about stuff whose appeal misses me. I have pop records in my collection of CDs but most have some connection to jazz whether it is EW & F, Sting fronting a band with Branford on tenor or something covered by a jazz musician I appreciate and wanted to explore the source.


I'm surprised that you contest that it has been Black artists who have dominated and shaped 20th century popular music. This has been the case since the blues boom in the early 1920's after which jazz played a big part in popular music. Even when fans started to champion the likes of Benny Goodman as "king of Swing" little did they realise that he had employed the services of Fletcher Henderson , edgar Sampson and Jimmy Munday who had pioneered the same music 5-10 years earlier. If you skip forward to the likes of Elvis Presley in the 1950's he could not have produced what he did without borrowing heavily from Black american culture.

I grant you that there have been many white popular artists in pop music who I admire and have little to do with jazz (Bjork, Kate Buch, etc) but as an aggregate it remains black popular culture that dictates and shapes the broader picture. Not only that, but it also seems to endure longer when their white counterparts have often faded in to obsurity. Black popular culture seems to have a legacy that their white counterpart5s can't achieve whether it is country blues from the delta in the 20s or classic Blue Note recordings in the 50's and 60's. I find it sad that some people fail to accept that Black individuals have dominated certain fields whether it is jazz, popular music or sport.

This isn't YouTube.