Why don't jazzers record pop tunes any more?

[Tenor Freak]

One of the things I always liked about jass was the fact that its practitioners could wring new meaning out of pop tunes: extracting gold from dross, you might say. But I'm not aware of much activity on that front of late - though that probably has more to do with my own ignorance. Has St. Sonny recorded a version of "Wonderwall" or "Hit Me Baby One More Time", I wonder? I know contemporary pop tunes are a bit flat compared to old tin pan alley slash Broadway show tunes but that does not mean that nothing may be done with them to get some jass value from them.

For example I found this linked from the Boards of Canada forum which interested me - Donny McCaslin doing a version of one of BOC's epics:

[Tenor Freak]

Compare with the original -

[Beef Oven!]

Hi Tenor Freak

Casting For Gravity is an amazing album (listening to it now, as I type!). I feel that fusion is a definite way forward (I find a lot of Jazz something of a cul-de-sac ) and McCaslin leads the way in my opinion.

I don't think pop is dross, and heaven forbid, Jazz a superior approach to music, that liberates musical nuggets from inferior forms. I'm sure that isn't what you meant, but the implication could be there!

[muzzer]

Not a jazzer of course, but Richard Thompson has recorded Oops I Did It Again...and certainly wrings a different meaning from it.

[burning dog]

Trouble is fusion is so often performed by people who wouldn't recognise Pop music if they fell over it. Even going back to the original jazz fusion, how could Chic Corea produce something as dodgy as "Romantic Warrior" or Johnny Mac "Birds of Fire" etc.. Annoying thing is JM COULD do Jazz influenced Pop music and vice versa.

I think the reason Jazz isn't so keen on later Pop songs is that many aren't structured "songs" and are already artist/arrangement specific and if jazzers want to perform "non songs" they just make 'em up themselves as they have been doing since the modal era.

Jazz has had a great influence on Pop but it's played down by jazzers who want jazz to be an Art music rather than Popular, but I consider jazz to be both/All

Can't think of any Popular-ish (or Classical?) genre that isn't a cul de sac really, except possibly post-Dance, if such a phrase has been coined and 99% of rock based music sounds like it could have been from 30 years ago, there will always be obscure experimental stuff of course but that doesn't seem to feed back into the mainstream as much as it did.

[muzzer]

Agree with that. Categories are for the record rack. And rock music is an utterly bankrupt genre.

[MrGongGong]

Can't think of any Popular-ish (or Classical?) genre that isn't a cul de sac really, except possibly post-Dance, if such a phrase has been coined and 99% of rock based music sounds like it could have been from 30 years ago, there will always be obscure experimental stuff of course but that doesn't seem to feed back into the mainstream as much as it did.

Why on earth should we bother about the "mainstream" at all ?
When I hear "mainstream" music I hear lots of things that have come from what one might term "obscure experimental" stuff , I know a musician who makes pieces with hacked gameboys etc who has made sound libraries for many commercial recordings.
The 'cul-de-sac' (or should it be Dan le sac ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWrMGXwhFLk) phrase is usually a sign (like ENC ) of lazyness as in "serialism is a dead end" ....

Thanks for the Donny McCaslin though interesting stuff indeed

[burning dog]

Trouble is fusion is so often performed by people who wouldn't recognise Pop music if they fell over it.


I think the reason Jazz isn't so keen on later Pop songs is that many aren't structured "songs" and are already artist/arrangement specific and if jazzers want to perform non-chordal compositions they just make 'em up themselves as they have been doing since the modal era.

Jazz has had a great influence on Pop but it's played down by jazzers who want jazz to be an Art music rather than Popular, but I consider jazz to be both/All

Can't think of any Popular-ish (or Classical?) genre that isn't a cul de sac really, except possibly post-Dance, if such a phrase has been coined .

[Ian Thumwood]

I'm staggered by Bruce's comments and equally by the enthusiasm for the McCaslin track goes absolutely nowhere. Calum made some very favourable comments last month about ths record too yet to my ears it seems a real betrayal of what jazz should be about. Tge original track is just a simple riff repeated in a loop ~ quite why McCaslin has fallen under it's spell, I don't know.

I don't tend to listen to much pop but have heard enough jazz recently to recommend some cracking albums for Bruce where pop material is transformed. Check out "Songs l like alot" by John Hollenbeck which includes some c & w reworkings as well as a brilliant version of Imogen Heap's "Canvas" and the total reconstruction of Queen's "Bicycle race." This is one of this year's best offerings as is Alan Ferber's "March sublime" which includes a version of Bjork's "Hyperballad" which also pops up on Travis Sullivan's two "Bjorkestra" albums. On a solo basis, check out some of Vijay Iyer's records which have included Michael Jackson covers (as have Mike LaDonne's organ~led groups which is superb) amongst the Sun Ra and Herbie Nichol's tunes.

I quite like this cover too even if it isn't really jazz......

[burning dog]

the total reconstruction of Queen's "Bicycle race."

If it's a TOTAL reconstruction I guess that's OK

[burning dog]

Why on earth should we bother about the "mainstream" at all ?
When I hear "mainstream" music I hear lots of things that have come from what one might term "obscure experimental" stuff , I know a musician who makes pieces with hacked gameboys etc who has made sound libraries for many commercial recordings.
The 'cul-de-sac' (or should it be Dan le sac ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWrMGXwhFLk) phrase is usually a sign (like ENC ) of lazyness as in "serialism is a dead end" ....

Thanks for the Donny McCaslin though interesting stuff indeed

I don't think a cul -de-sac (I was not the first to use it in this thread, repeating it was just being lazy I guess) if it means a road with no way out, a bad thing. In the literal meaning perhaps not so good. . You are right of course there is a lot of experimental music that influences "Pop" I don't hear much in of it the critically acclaimed rock bands that are considered "cool" and "a cut above Pop" though, personally. That's what I should have said. Why not bother about the mainstream? Don't you yourself give a reason why we might? I don't worry if people consider Serialism is a dead end. I don't worry if people it think it was "the way ahead" either <it has produced a lot of Good music>**

Subjective Opinion

[Ian Thumwood]

BD

It almost sounds like a new composition whilst retaining something of the over the top nature of the original There is also a version of Ornette's "All my life" and a steam[-rolling version of "Man of constant sorrow."

What no one has mentioned about pop records is their limited extent of decent material. By and large, a pop album is 1/3 good, 1/3 very6 ordinary and 1/3 so bad that it is staggering the music was released.There are few albums that5 are great all the way through. Quite liked Sting's "Dream of the blue turtle" but I suppose Kate Bush's "Hounds of love" must be one of the few examples of a perfect pop record. I'm not surprised that when pop material is reworked by jazz musicians, it tends to be by genuine musicians as opposed to more mainstream stuff or 3 chord rock bands.

That McCaslin track is absolute sh*te. Nothing to do with jazz or music for that matter.

[MrGongGong]

That McCaslin track is absolute sh*te. Nothing to do with jazz or music for that matter.

The oracle has spoken , nice to know your opinion
OF course its got a lot to do with music ....... because that's what it is

Can I send you a list of music for you to approve or otherwise I'm a bit worried that some of the music i'm listening to might be 'degenerate'

[burning dog]

I agree about the Pop album ratio Ian. whereas Jazz and Classical is often hopefully 90% "a good effort" results variable

I suppose th latter are less concerned with Airplay and Singles releases or whatever Singles are now

[Ian Thumwood]

Mr Gonggong

I would be fascinated for someone to point out to be what is so good about either the original or the cover version of that track. It does absolutely nothing and even if you argue along minimalist lines, it hardly compares to Reich or Glass. It staggers me how an argument can be advanced in favour of anything so pointless. Seriously, there is nothing to it.As a musical idea it's infantile.

At a jazz workshop this summer a teacher complained about this kind of stuff and made the sage comment that many younger jazz players are simply playing complex harmonies or time signatures over simple bar phrases. Too many younger players seem content to rely on playing over loops. Once you've sussed out what is happening, the music dulls rapidly. Amazing to think that after nearly 100 years of recorded jazz where rhythm, harmony and melody have been pushed to extremes and have produced composers as diverse as Ellington, Monk, Nichols, Shorter, Brookmeyer, George Russell, etc, etc, we've ended up with loops. Surely the notion is totally contrary to jazz's pursuit of freer forms of expression? If anything is the death of jazz, it is this kind of reduction of the music to an endless turnaround.