The Way it is

[french frank]

i have serached and searched and can find no lonk to the STuart Nicholson piece [is it only available in print or subscription?] if some one could put up a link to it i would be most grateful...

Aka

I'll email you the scan.


[On way.]

[Ian Thumwood]

FF

Are you able to reproduce the article on this board, please? Can't believe Prof Stu has written an article I agree with as he is usually banging on about Euro jazz. Usually consider him to be a bit of a pain in the R's in a "Trevor Cooper" kind of way.

I'm not sure that I agree with John's comments about separating the jazz content of big band music from dance. For me, the music either stands the test of time as a good piece of music or it pop empheria. There is probably little audience for dancing to this music these days and the better exponents of big band jazz need a platform akin to that afforded classical composers. I agree that there may be very good writers whose music was only on the edge of jazz but, in general, there is a heritage within this field which has passed from Don Redman through to the likes of Darcy James Argue today and it cannot be left to the morons on Radio 2 to dictate what is played or indeed how it is presented. I'd rather have this music presented by someone who knows what they are talking about than a fat dancer like Robbie Williams. Left to the half~wits in charge, it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see this field of music tied in with "Strictly come dancing." (Never watched this, by the way.)

[french frank]

Ian

I'm not sure that I can post it here in a form that will be big enough to read. Not sure what the copyright position is either. I can email it if you want it.

[Serial_Apologist]

FF

Are you able to reproduce the article on this board, please? Can't believe Prof Stu has written an article I agree with as he is usually banging on about Euro jazz. Usually consider him to be a bit of a pain in the R's in a "Trevor Cooper" kind of way.

I'm not sure that I agree with John's comments about separating the jazz content of big band music from dance. For me, the music either stands the test of time as a good piece of music or it pop empheria. There is probably little audience for dancing to this music these days and the better exponents of big band jazz need a platform akin to that afforded classical composers. I agree that there may be very good writers whose music was only on the edge of jazz but, in general, there is a heritage within this field which has passed from Don Redman through to the likes of Darcy James Argue today and it cannot be left to the morons on Radio 2 to dictate what is played or indeed how it is presented. I'd rather have this music presented by someone who knows what they are talking about than a fat dancer like Robbie Williams. Left to the half~wits in charge, it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to see this field of music tied in with "Strictly come dancing." (Never watched this, by the way.)

In any case people will dance to anything of any length, provided its rhythmically, er, convivial. I remember this being the case with Trevor Watts's Moire Music at the 1984 Bracknell Festival. We're talking more dance as in trance here than a 4-minute hop to preset steps - a sub-taste of suburban Voodoo of long, gradually evolving, interswitching polyrhythms with free modal solos over the top.

[Old Grumpy]

FF

Are you able to reproduce the article on this board, please? Can't believe Prof Stu has written an article I agree with as he is usually banging on about Euro jazz. Usually consider him to be a bit of a pain in the R's in a "Trevor Cooper" kind of way.

I have been trying to find contact details for Stuart Nicholson, but to no avail. Failing ff's offer of an email I suggest contacting Jazzwise or even (dare I say) buying a copy!

OG

[John Wright]

FF

I'm not sure that I agree with John's comments about separating the jazz content of big band music from dance. For me, the music either stands the test of time as a good piece of music or it pop empheria. There is probably little audience for dancing to this music these days

Well yes there are many dance clubs who do dance to old dance band music, indeed the Savoy Hotel in London now have a new resident band who played to dancers just last night, and there's a whole schedule for that band into next year, Alex Mendham Orch. There's a similar band hotting up New York City too, Vince Giordano Orch, who has provided soundtrack for Boardwalk Empire and the new Gatsby film.

As well as dancers there's a lot more people like myself who enjoy the original dance band records to listen to - originally disposable 'pop' music to dance to, and soon going out of fashion, the old dance music has become something to listen to, something to study, for the quality of the songs (mainly US composers for film/Broadway), the music arrangements (Brits wrote their own), the quality of the vocals and the quality of the musicians who played solid ensemble work and who got to play the occasional 'break'. Generally the dance band music listeners also enjoy the hotter jazz too, and the US bands; the converse though, as you imply, is not so true :)

[Serial_Apologist]

Well yes there are many dance clubs who do dance to old dance band music, indeed the Savoy Hotel in London now have a new resident band who played to dancers just last night, and there's a whole schedule for that band into next year, Alex Mendham Orch. There's a similar band hotting up New York City too, Vince Giordano Orch, who has provided soundtrack for Boardwalk Empire and the new Gatsby film.

As well as dancers there's a lot more people like myself who enjoy the original dance band records to listen to - originally disposable 'pop' music to dance to, and soon going out of fashion, the old dance music has become something to listen to, something to study, for the quality of the songs (mainly US composers for film/Broadway), the music arrangements (Brits wrote their own), the quality of the vocals and the quality of the musicians who played solid ensemble work and who got to play the occasional 'break'. Generally the dance band music listeners also enjoy the hotter jazz too, and the US bands; the converse though, as you imply, is not so true :)

Funny to think that the Savoy is where me dad got to meet "young ladies" at afternoon tea dances in the early '30s, taking to the floor backed by Lew Stone or Ambrose usually. "It never went beyond holding hands back then" he used to tell us. We believed him, of course.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the excellent BBC 4 doc on the Blues PArt 1 made an interesting point: the Delta was a source of the Blues, not because it was old and traditional, but completely new; reclaimed land, new agribusiness, young population .... dancing and drinking were the fun to be had

later on the dance bands and supper club ensembles in Oakland Kansas Chicago would build through the dancing audience aan ecology for Jazz to grow .... whatever else wee might think of Ambrose et al in the UK they provided a similar function for jazz artists here ...

there could be a Radio Documentary in this eh?

[John Wright]

Funny to think that the Savoy is where me dad got to meet "young ladies" at afternoon tea dances in the early '30s, taking to the floor backed by Lew Stone or Ambrose usually. "It never went beyond holding hands back then" he used to tell us. We believed him, of course.

Nice story S_A. The bandleader at the Savoy though was Carroll Gibbons, from 1932 until 1954, I'm sure your dad also went to other hot spots in town. Lew Stone was at the Monseigneur in the early 30's, while Ambrose and Harry Roy had spells at the Mayfair and Ambrose was also for a time at the Embassy Club. The 30s was that golden age of the dance bands. The bands were usually under strict instructions that the music always be dance-able. What they put on their records was often a bit hotter, and as I say this meant folks began listening to records more than dancing to them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QTPKq7UAM Ambrose band, Embassy Stomp, written and arranged by (Brit) Bert Barnes.

[Serial_Apologist]

the excellent BBC 4 doc on the Blues PArt 1 made an interesting point: the Delta was a source of the Blues, not because it was old and traditional, but completely new; reclaimed land, new agribusiness, young population .... dancing and drinking were the fun to be had

And a point made by one of BBB's afficionados of today about new blues styles supplanting older was that blacks are progressive and forward, rather than backward-thinking, not wishing to dwell on past sufferings but celebrate advances. This would affect Broonzy's later reputation in his own community: a strong factor when coming onto bebop - think of Dizzy's views on the subject! - though not with romantically-fixated young European whites distanced from what had been the realities seeking sources beyond the previous buttoned-up generation to identify America's post WW2 cultural invasion with - a subtext one felt here in the contributions of the 60s Brit Blues exponents. It occurs to me that this may be one of the explanations for the 60s Blues Boom emerging from Trad initially rather than our beboppers - Graham Bond having been one of our first to seek out those initial Ornette recordings and bring 'em over!

[Ian Thumwood]

John

i would have to admit that Ambrose record came as a surprise. It seems like a contrafact - is this is based on "Nagasaki. "
My piano teacher played in these kinds of bands but wasn't too complimentary. Hardly surprising as his favourite pianists were Bud Powell and Thelonious Monk! I can appreciate your argument whilst not being a fan of the commercial recordings. For want5 of a better word, I love the "hot" recordings and whilst I love all sorts of jazz, still have a soft spot for the black bands of the 30's and 40's. I find recordings by the likes of Mills Blue rhythm Band to be magical in a way that fires up my imgination. .

Vince Gordiano's Night hawks are excellent and I've spent many an hour searching their music out on Youtube. there is a great concert with james Zollar (!) on trumpet playing scores by6 Chappie Willett that I have enjoyed.

[John Wright]

Thanks Ian, and look what my colleague Alex Mendham was doing at St Pancras Station just this evening!

[elmo]

John

i would have to admit that Ambrose record came as a surprise. It seems like a contrafact - is this is based on "Nagasaki. "
My piano teacher played in these kinds of bands but wasn't too complimentary. Hardly surprising as his favourite pianists were Bud Powell and Thelonious Monk! I can appreciate your argument whilst not being a fan of the commercial recordings. For want5 of a better word, I love the "hot" recordings and whilst I love all sorts of jazz, still have a soft spot for the black bands of the 30's and 40's. I find recordings by the likes of Mills Blue rhythm Band to be magical in a way that fires up my imgination. .

Vince Gordiano's Night hawks are excellent and I've spent many an hour searching their music out on Youtube. there is a great concert with james Zollar (!) on trumpet playing scores by6 Chappie Willett that I have enjoyed.

Ian

I encountered Vince Giordano's Nighthawks purely by accident when when my wife and some friends went to a pub just off Times Square (can't remember the name) and the band were absolutely brilliant.
It was one of those gigs when the everything clicked and to quote Steve Lacy "they lifted the bandstand" they played Duke, Luis russell, Fletcher arrangements with their own touch -really hot jazz.
Vince played a metal double bass and got a lovely sound from it add he was really enthusiastic about what he played, he also has an encyclopedic knowledge of early Jazz.
My wife although far too young to remember (brownie points) 20''s and 30's music loves the Pasadena Roof Orchestra so I requested if Vince would play an old dance tune called " me and jane in a plane" Vince did not know the tune but said if we came the following night he would track it down and the band would play it. We went the following night but I was sceptical but he had tracked down an arrangement rehearsed the band and played it that night, my wife was gobsmacked.
The band was just as good onthat second night as the first.
elmo

[John Wright]

Great story elmo.

And well done Vince rustling up an arrangement for 'Me And Jane In A Plane', he may have acquired it through Alex Mendham or Michael Law (Piccadilly Dance Orch) because it's a very British tune from 1927 written by 'Horatio Nicholls' real name Lawrence Wright, a publisher some of you may have seen on record labels or contemporary music magazines.

There's an interesting story related to 'Me And Jane In A Plane' which I wrote about some years ago, I'll post it here if I can find/remember the details.

[John Wright]

Just remembered I said I would post something about 'Me And Jane In A Plane'. I played the record a couple of years ago on a podcast, and I recounted the story that I read in one of Brian Rust's books:

Jack Hylton's band in 1927, and Me And Jane In A Plane. Now the Jack Hylton band was a show band and boy could they put on a show.
In order to promote their new record, Me And Jane In A Plane, Jack actually hired an aeroplane and it carried the band and music publisher Lawrence Wright aka Horatio Nicholls, flying round Blackpool Tower. The crowds below could clearly hear the band playing their latest tune 'Me And Jane In A Plane', and the plane dropped a package onto the crowd. The package was opened and found to contain the music sheets for the tune and these were rushed to the Palace Theatre Blackpool where Ray Starita's band (Piccadilly Revels Band) were appearing. Ray's band rehearsed and played the tune in their Sunday evening concert. Meanwhile Jack Hylton's plane had flown off to Croydon near London and later in Aug 1927 Jack Hylton's band made their recording of Me And Jane In A Plane at the Small Queen's Hall in London. Jack Hylton, Chappie D'Amato and Hugo Rignold were the trio singing on the record, and the fabulous music arrangement made the record a great hit. The prominent brass section included Jack Jackson and Jack Raine trumpets, and Lew Davis trombone, we also heard hot licks from alto sax, likely Poggy Pogson, and the guitar of Chappie D'Amato.

http://www.r2ok.co.uk/meandjane3.mp3

Sorry this thread got highjacked in my defence of 1920s'30s dance bands