......... so happy to have some place to blow my horn

[eighthobstruction]

And as Bristolians say, "Where's thee bin?" - or did when I was there.

....sorry to be a pedant....but it's "Worst dee been...."....

[Serial_Apologist]

....sorry to be a pedant....but it's "Worst dee been...."....

I bow to your incontrovertible expertise, eighth!

[eighthobstruction]

I bow to your incontrovertible expertise, eighth!

Your the only one who bliddy does these days ......then....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

me too me too

[Ian Thumwood]

The Solal track on JRR was amazing and I was surprised how good he Steve Waterman track was too. Managed to catch about 15 mins on my portable radio at half time whilst Southampton were destroying Fulham at St. Marys.

The strangest inclusion was Glenn Miller. I have to own up to the fact that his music was my entrance to jazz when I was about 13 but I was quickly put right by my Dad with a healthy diet of Benny Goodman and Count Basie ! I've seldom listened to him since. After hearing Basie's band wail with Lester Young or the Duke's visonary tone-poems, there seemed no need to listen to Miller afterwards. By the time I was about 15, the Dorseys and Millers had been firmly replaced by the Kirks, Webbs and Millinders who seemed a thousand times more exciting. Miller is probably loathed by jazz fans to a greater degree than any other band leader of that era and it is funny how he seems to have become "public enemy number one" in that bands of a far lesser ability are given more credibility or at least subject to less stinging criticism. Wondered how many people had ever read Gunther Schuller's take on Miller's music as his enthusiasm staggered me? I can admire the effectiveness and almost perfection of a score like "In the mood" and would even argue that there are numerous recordings like "Johnson Rag" where Miller's band could slip in to the jazz field. However, Schuller made me realise just how cynical Miller's music was. I think there are something like 16 different voicings that he used or permitted his arrangers to employ. There is obviously more to his music than the clarinet lead yet the palette he worked from was amazingly restricted as he wished to have as distinctive sound as possible to appeal to a broader and less sophisticated audience. Having perfected this, Miller employed it to great effect. Anyone can recognise his music even if they know nothing about big bands.

I don't think you could call "Chattanooga choo-choo" jazz by any chalk as it is cringe-worthy pop music of it's day. The arrangement is polished but I sometimes wonder that the idea of pop being invented by the generation of acts in the 1950's like Bill Haley, Elvis, Buddy Holly really have their antecedants with Miller who perfected a popular music model in the late thirties and early forties. It's interesting to see how pop has evolved so that there is now a minimum and maximum tempo for pop music and a very much defined length of each tune. For me, Glenn Miller is more to blame for the restricted commerciality of pop music more than anyone else and whilst there were 100's of other lousy white big bands too who either played "mickey Mouse " or "Sweet " music, none managed to perfect the commercial formula so efficiently as Glenn Miller. He may have sometimes performed "jazzy" numbers or even musicians such as the rather dull Bobby Hacket ( as a guitarist, I believe) but I would suggest his approach was more opposed to the grand tenets of jazz than any other bandleader of his generation. If you like, you could argue that without Glenn Miller we would not have had Lady Gaga.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Leaving aside the assertions you make about Miller, Ian, occasionally it seems right to include a track for a very young listener. The child in question for whom the track was requested is not particularly well, though that was not something I mentioned on air, and we (ie the production team) felt that the programme might assist in her recovery. No doubt BN will see yet another presenter led conspiracy theory in this.

[Serial_Apologist]

Leaving aside the assertions you make about Miller, Ian, occasionally it seems right to include a track for a very young listener. The child in question for whom the track was requested is not particularly well, though that was not something I mentioned on air, and we (ie the production team) felt that the programme might assist in her recovery. No doubt BN will see yet another presenter led conspiracy theory in this.

I hope it works its magic. Like with Ian, I guess Glenn Miller was my gateway into big band Swing in the late 50s, at the time I was discovering Trad and boogie woogie, and before discovering bebop and R&B. Miller was arguably the last Swing bandleader to appeal to the budding 50s working class teenage revolution this side of the pond, and there was some overlap with rock n roll; but you had to be a real jazz devotee to have heard about Benny Goodman et al at that stage when one might enter the portal.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i remember discovering Glenn miller on 78s from the Library as a kid .... Moonlight Serenade can still give me a pause or two ....... and this too

long live the ineffable anarchic spirit of the jazz art

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Leaving aside the assertions you make about Miller, Ian, occasionally it seems right to include a track for a very young listener. The child in question for whom the track was requested is not particularly well, though that was not something I mentioned on air, and we (ie the production team) felt that the programme might assist in her recovery. No doubt BN will see yet another presenter led conspiracy theory in this.

Bit of a cheap shot Alyn.

I have an old fondness for "String of Pearls" for Bobby Hackett's solo. Giddins is a big admirer of his work.

Now back to taunting sick kids.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Alyn

Apologies but hadn't realised the request was for a kid. As I explained, I was dipping in during half time at the football.
SA

The curious thing about Miller's repertoire is how much of it was recorded by other bands and, in quite a few cases, before Miller got his hand on it. Granted there is a lot of original material but it is fascinating to hear Goodman's superior version of "String of pearls" (totally different approach) or even the various incarnation of the "in the mood" theme. I believe that this tune was credited to Joe Garland (might have been Ed Garland ?) but I think the arrangement was actually by Eddie Durham who had previously worked for Moten, Lunceford and Basie. Miller was famous for his admiration of Lunceford's orchestra but I suppose this was more for the performance abilities than the jazz element.

[Serial_Apologist]

Alyn

Apologies but hadn't realised the request was for a kid. As I explained, I was dipping in during half time at the football.
SA

The curious thing about Miller's repertoire is how much of it was recorded by other bands and, in quite a few cases, before Miller got his hand on it. Granted there is a lot of original material but it is fascinating to hear Goodman's superior version of "String of pearls" (totally different approach) or even the various incarnation of the "in the mood" theme. I believe that this tune was credited to Joe Garland (might have been Ed Garland ?) but I think the arrangement was actually by Eddie Durham who had previously worked for Moten, Lunceford and Basie. Miller was famous for his admiration of Lunceford's orchestra but I suppose this was more for the performance abilities than the jazz element.

One set ones sights pretty low when starting out; it was more the improvised snippets that attracted me than the arrangements, Ian. The same went for the single chorus guitar breaks on "Rock Around the Clock" and "Only One Woman in Town"; one had no idea there was such a thing as improvisation - one was attracted to the reality before knowing of the concept, and probably not alone in this; Norma Winstone is interviewed somewhere saying she thought those Paul Desmond solos had been written out when first she heard them.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Agree with that. I listened to a heap of junk waiting for a brief boogie piano or a hint of h'alto.

We had it tough in the Welsh jazz clubs of 1923.

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

Agree with that. I listened to a heap of junk waiting for a brief boogie piano or a hint of h'alto.

We had it tough in the Welsh jazz clubs of 1923.

BN.

You think you had it tough...

(Etc etc - to be continued 1953)

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Hey, during the war we made bass strings from the bracing wires of shot down German bombers...

Fingers like steam winches, we had.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Picking up on my earlier post, I've dug out the Gunther Schuller's analysis of Miller's approach but unfortunately his conclusions are too long-winded to repeat here. I was wrong in mentioning the variety of "colours" he employed, Schuller notes that Miller limited himself to 6-7 and that this was set by late 1939 so that no matter who was employed as an arranger, they all had to use "Miller sounds." It is an interesting chapter and highlight's Miller's desire for something simple and unique to capture the attention of his audience which was slow and lazy with appreciating sophisticated musical ideas. Schuller is full ofpraise for the musical manner in which he actually used a small number of components in a creative manner. Sometimes I find his analyse a but controversial and he does have the problem of over-praising some bands and dismissing other groups that should be higher considered such as John Kirby. Miller obviously hit upon the winning formula as he was alleged to have been earning 100 thousand dollars a month from his rcordings when he disabnded in 1942. He became a millionaire on the proceeds of "In the mood" alone. When questioned by John Hammond about the quality of his output (he was no fan of Miller's music). GM is alleged to have replied that he was only interested in making money. Put in the context of Schuller's analysis and perhaps taking a 21st century point of view, it is hard not to view Miller's approach as cynical - although the audience for his music would not have agreed.

Several years after I first read this I heard a documentary on the radio regarding how pop records are now produced and this mentioned that similar constants were necessary to get a hit and the further you departed from these "norms" the harder it was to be successful. Obviously there are elements like duration of the record that apply but there are also things about having a catchy "hook" as well as more musical elements like the fact that outside a very narrow range of tempi, it becomes increasingly more difficult to have a hit song. I think there were also rules regarding the choice of key . I've tried to find a link to a similar article but have had to give up.

SA commented on setting your sights pretty low when starting out. I'm not sure whether this totally applies to Miller. Like the girl who requested the track, Miller's music was my route in to jazz albeit one I quickly grew out of as I became more interested in exploring. When you read what Schuller has to say, it is true that Miller simplified the ingredients of his music but he also re-employed them in a fashion that was quite sophisticated . I feel that Miller's quest for commercial success was probably shared by many other bandleaders and that he was not unique yet none were quite as visionary as him in identifying in musical terms how he could turn this in to riches. If there was ever a "winning formula" for big band music then Glenn Miller discovered it.

I don't think that you can quite compare the simplicity of early rock n' roll to Glenn Miller as his music is well beyond the three-chord rule that the late Lou Reed has been quoted as saying this week. Miller's music is pretty sophisticated in many respects and something like the trumpet parts of "In the mood" would have given brass players nightmares in 1939. Even writers like George Orwell have written about the fact that the majority of people are quite content listening to unchallenging and often very banal music. The audience for Elvis is always going to be greater than for Bartok although of little musical merit in contrast to the Hungarian who (I would suggest) was one of the most important musical minds of the 20th century. I would applaud Miller for actually having the patience to distill he musical vocabulary down to the 7 musical ingredients and then re-shaping them in 100's of musical performances so that the better tracks are still familiar 70 years later. To me, this suggests someone who was extremely clever. Yet, for all that, his music could only rarely have been considered to have reach the high art of someone like Duke Ellington if at all.

Thats my opinion anyway!!