GSJ on Wayne's World

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think that Coltrane was such a dominant figure, such that Brecker and Grossman etc used to pass his tapes around as tablets from Zion, that there was bound to be a reaction. I had a much younger friend of that era who now teaches saxophone at university. Dont they all. He was very anti Coltrane and when I gave him David Murray's The Hill he became an instant Murrayite. This was the new
dawn and the new God had spoken. Well....

Talkin bout that generation.


BN.



I DO agree that there are a lot of very interesting players around now. The guy who plays with Roy Hargrove impressed me a lot.

ONE final thing. Theres a habit by this generation(ish) to listen to jazz with a sharpened pencil and a school notebook giving marks out of ten for modernity. Almost Stalinist in its limits and absurd certainties. Tbe much earlier tradition of craft and honesty is cast aside or rejected as pre modern. I think of Arnett Cobb, Buddy Tate, Budd Johnson, Benny Greeen,et al who rarely figure on this site...because they weren't twenty something in 1970. I say enjoy what you enjoy. Life's too short to suffer tossers.


BN.

[Paul Campbell]

Its interesting to contrast Shorter and Mobley, something that never would have occurred to me and I have just about everything that they ever recorded! Wayne's music is endlessly fascinating, but Hank's makes me grin like a cheshire cat. I have the greatest respect for Wayne both musically and as a human being, but I love Hank! Tonewise i don't quite make the connection... but look forward to a chilled weekend reflecting on the matter.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Its interesting to contrast Shorter and Mobley, something that never would have occurred to me and I have just about everything that they ever recorded! Wayne's music is endlessly fascinating, but Hank's makes me grin like a cheshire cat. I have the greatest respect for Wayne both musically and as a human being, but I love Hank! Tonewise i don't quite make the connection... but look forward to a chilled weekend reflecting on the matter.

Mobley - the joy of life! Jean Toussaint, R3 profile. ...May 2002.

"Hank had his very own direction. And influenced the younger players...Joe Henderson and Wayne Shorter, you can HEAR those elements of Hank in
them."

BN.

Just listening back to Wayne's first Vee Jay date with Wynton Kelly and there is a kind of "yelp" in his upper register which is certainly not Tranes' but comes out of Mobley.

[Tenor Freak]

I think I understand what Jean Toussaint means. The scene in NYC must have been quite small with most of the players knowing eachother fairly well. Mobley was a regular on the scene and his records were widely available; it makes sense for Wayne to have heard something in his phrasing or articulation and copied it. Even though he was far more advanced harmonically than Mobley why not? Both were influenced by Pres and Wayne has acknowledged this in interviews. And, even though Wayne was clearly copying Trane early on, he'd already processed that style and was moving on by the time he joined Miles.

As for Trane: he cast a massive shadow over the succeeding generations of saxophonists, especially those coming up in the 70s and 80s. I remember being a bit put off by this when I first got into jazz in the 80s, every young player seemed to be copying Trane and not very subtly. (cf. Courtney Pine, Steve Williamson, Dave O'Higgins etc) I never could really cope with undiluted Coltrane anyway because he always sounded so bleedin' earnest. I felt more comfortable with Sonny Rollins' music, and absorbed Trane indirectly through Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson. Those three musicians' methods seemed to have more interest; the bit of Trane's music that was copied widely was the substitutions that he played (eg the Giant Steps stuff) which could be learned by rote and which Trane himself had moved away from in the end.

Too many musicians coming later copied the notes, not the spirit of the man. Time has put distance to that, thank goodness.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think I understand what Jean Toussaint means. The scene in NYC must have been quite small with most of the players knowing eachother fairly well. Mobley was a regular on the scene and his records were widely available; it makes sense for Wayne to have heard something in his phrasing or articulation and copied it. Even though he was far more advanced harmonically than Mobley why not? Both were influenced by Pres and Wayne has acknowledged this in interviews. And, even though Wayne was clearly copying Trane early on, he'd already processed that style and was moving on by the time he joined Miles.

As for Trane: he cast a massive shadow over the succeeding generations of saxophonists, especially those coming up in the 70s and 80s. I remember being a bit put off by this when I first got into jazz in the 80s, every young player seemed to be copying Trane and not very subtly. (cf. Courtney Pine, Steve Williamson, Dave O'Higgins etc) I never could really cope with undiluted Coltrane anyway because he always sounded so bleedin' earnest. I felt more comfortable with Sonny Rollins' music, and absorbed Trane indirectly through Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson. Those three musicians' methods seemed to have more interest; the bit of Trane's music that was copied widely was the substitutions that he played (eg the Giant Steps stuff) which could be learned by rote and which Trane himself had moved away from in the end.

Too many musicians coming later copied the notes, not the spirit of the man. Time has put distance to that, thank goodness.

I think it often is when you first get into it. I rmember buying Giant Steps when it first came out in the UK and playing it to death. Then a friend went to Paris and got Coltrane Jazz and Fav Things on French Atlantic and that was it! Hooked right thro to Japan etc. Coltrane got me thro some rough times. I dont mind the earnest. Interesting listening to Evan Parker on how Coltrane spun him around in 61. Coltrane was then to be found if you were interested not rammed down peoples throats.


BN.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think it often is when you first get into it. I rmember buying Giant Steps when it first came out in the UK and playing it to death. Then a friend went to Paris and got Coltrane Jazz and Fav Things on French Atlantic and that was it! Hooked right thro to Japan etc. Coltrane got me thro some rough times. I dont mind the earnest. Interesting listening to Evan Parker on how Coltrane spun him around in 61. Coltrane was then to be found if you were interested not rammed down peoples throats.


BN.

BTW dont forget that Wayne joined Blakey as a result of Mobley's no shows. So no real surprise if there was a legacy. Blakey said he and Bobby Timmons really had to work with Shorter to get him to play himself with confidence.

[Serial_Apologist]

the bit of Trane's music that was copied widely was the substitutions that he played (eg the Giant Steps stuff) which could be learned by rote and which Trane himself had moved away from in the end.

Too many musicians coming later copied the notes, not the spirit of the man. Time has put distance to that, thank goodness.

I totally agree with all that you've said here, TF.

[elmo]

BTW dont forget that Wayne joined Blakey as a result of Mobley's no shows. So no real surprise if there was a legacy. Blakey said he and Bobby Timmons really had to work with Shorter to get him to play himself with confidence.

Another connection between Wayne and Hank is that they both lived in Newark during their formative years. There was only 3 years difference in age so they almost certainly knew one another and turned up to gigs and jam sessions in the area.

Agree re Blakey and Wayne on "Free for all" without doubt one of the most exciting and powerful pieces of playing I have ever heard, it still makes the hair on the back of the neck stand up every time I play it.

elmo

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Another connection between Wayne and Hank is that they both lived in Newark during their formative years. There was only 3 years difference in age so they almost certainly knew one another and turned up to gigs and jam sessions in the area.

Agree re Blakey and Wayne on "Free for all" without doubt one of the most exciting and powerful pieces of playing I have ever heard, it still makes the hair on the back of the neck stand up every time I play it.

elmo

Free for All was one of Freddie Hubbards fav Blakey dates years later..."I bet Rudy's walls are still ringing after that one!" Amazing record.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

I was staggered when I heard "Free for all" for the first time about 10 years ago when HMV would flog old Blue Notes for £5 with offers of 5 for £20. During the early 2000's I snagged up loads of these records which, as a rule, never seemed to be anything less than tremendously exciting. I made the mistake of putting this Blakey disc on whilst listening on headphones and the force of the music was deafening! It is a strange album in that it doesn't seem to belong to the 1960's and is one of the perculiar records that Blue Note issued that is really difficult to date. Improve the hi-fi and it could have easily have been made 20-odd years later.

From time to time numerous jazz musicians have issued some pretty ferocious LPs and I suppose in my collectiom only Bobby Previte's "Too close to the Pole" matches the bombast of this Blakey record. (A good friend of mine was horrified at how noisy the Previte disc was but I suppose that is what you get if you listen to too much ECM! ) I think the best way of describing "Free for all" is musculine - it lacks restraint and most of the pieces seem to be played at fff . It is a hard record to love and it is so intense that you get the impression this record is some kind of manifesto. At the time I really enjoyed the unbridled aggression of this record and it is certainly not the kind of record to sit down and relax with. I can't think of many other drummers who dominated the ensemble and much as Blakey and whilst you could call in to question his taste, in this idiom the formula works and sets the record apart from a lot of the other music Blue Note recorded. If Craig Bellamy played the drums, he would sound like Art Blakey.

[Bamig]

One of my favourite Jazz Messengers was always 'Roots And Herbs.' All the compositions by Shorter, and Wayne and Lee Morgan both at their best, I think.