GSJ on Wayne's World

[Tenor Freak]

Didn't get a chance to hear it until last night, but I thought it was a fair assessment of Wayne's career. Some good selections and not all of them obvious although Footprints had to make an appearance (actually not one of my favourite Shorter compositions). For example I hadn't heard the first tune Sweet 'n' Sour before and it is a cracker. It was good to have a composition from one of the Messengers' LPs that did not appear on Blue Note - there could have been many others.

And here's a personal favourite which was also played by the Messengers when they appeared on Jazz 625. This one must have had a fair number of outings on their numerous tours and also has the late Cedar Walton, playing on Birdland's out of tune joanna:

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Didn't get a chance to hear it until last night, but I thought it was a fair assessment of Wayne's career. Some good selections and not all of them obvious although Footprints had to make an appearance (actually not one of my favourite Shorter compositions). For example I hadn't heard the first tune Sweet 'n' Sour before and it is a cracker. It was good to have a composition from one of the Messengers' LPs that did not appear on Blue Note - there could have been many others.

And here's a personal favourite which was also played by the Messengers when they appeared on Jazz 625. This one must have had a fair number of outings on their numerous tours and also has the late Cedar Walton, playing on Birdland's out of tune joanna:

Bruce, Ckout the recent Proper box set for loads of earlier very good Wayniac compositions that didnt show up again...and some tres hip bands.

ALSO some great footage of Wayne with Bo Blakey etc. in Japan et Italy on Yeeeeeewtewb.

BN.

[Quarky]

Well, I was thinking that Wayne hadn't changed at all over the years. The same Wayne with Miles, Weather Report, and his latest quartet. But on this Jazz Messengers track, his tone seems a bit harsher, more like Coltrane. Guess I ought to listen to more Jazz Messengers, but not much time available for listening.

It seems to me that, with over 60 years of making music, Wayne's head must be stuffed full of musical fragments, and that when he improvises spontaneously, he has this huge database of bits and pieces to draw on. Anyhow, that's what I felt on listening to his "Beyond the Sound Barrier" album.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I was thinking that Wayne hadn't changed at all over the years. The same Wayne with Miles, Weather Report, and his latest quartet. But on this Jazz Messengers track, his tone seems a bit harsher, more like Coltrane. Guess I ought to listen to more Jazz Messengers, but not much time available for listening.

It seems to me that, with over 60 years of making music, Wayne's head must be stuffed full of musical fragments, and that when he improvises spontaneously, he has this huge database of bits and pieces to draw on. Anyhow, that's what I felt on listening to his "Beyond the Sound Barrier" album.

The general consensus (with which, based on a few recordings) I would agree, is that the change came over Wayne's playing after he joined Miles. Before that, it's pretty much Coltrane Mark II in the Jazz Messengers, sheets of sound etc, afterwards:

"It wasn't the bish-bash, sock'-em-dead routine we had with Blakey, with every solo a climax. With Miles, I felt like a cello, I felt viola, I felt liquid, dot-dash ... and colours started really coming. And then a lot of people started calling me - 'Can you be on my record date?' It was six years of that". (DownBeat 14 July 1977, quoted in Miles Davis the Definitive Biography, I.Carr, HarperCollins, London, 1999, P 198).

Trish Clowes remarked in her programme how difficult it was approaching a Shorter solo the way one had one by Coltrane for analysis, i.e. following a straight through narrative, saying in so many words that Shorter went beyond this, less self-contained, involving constant interactions with other inputs to a much greater extent.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

[QUOTE=Serial_Apologist;326878]The general consensus (with which, based on a few recordings) I would agree, is that the change came over Wayne's playing after he joined Miles. Before that, it's pretty much Coltrane Mark II in the Jazz Messengers, sheets of sound etc, afterwards:

"It wasn't the bish-bash, sock'-em-dead routine we had with Blakey, with every solo a climax. With Miles, I felt like a cello, I felt viola, I felt liquid, dot-dash ... and colours started really coming. And then a lot of people started calling me - 'Can you be on my record date?' It was six years of that". (DownBeat 14 July 1977, quoted in Miles Davis the Definitive Biography, I.Carr, HarperCollins, London, 1999, P 198).

Trish Clowes remarked in her programme how difficult it was approaching a Shorter solo the way one had one by Coltrane for analysis, i.e. following a straight through narrative, saying in so many words that Shorter went beyond this, less self-contained, involving constant interactions with other inputs to a much greater extent.[/QUOTE
]

No wish to argue with Wayne, oh why not, but I think that Blakey was a far more subtle drummer than given credit. Freddie Hubbard also disagreed that it was all bash and Shorter himself said it was Blakey who really taught him to structure a solo. Miles band was a lot more open in composition and form and hence gave Wayne far more space and leeway. Than Lee and Art. Innit.

BN.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Interesting selection from GS. Quite a contrast (with one or two overlaps) from the Jazz Library which was 6 years ago now, in which I was helped (sort of) by Wayne himself:
DISC 1
Title: Footprints
Artist: Wayne Shorter
Composer: Shorter
Album: Footprints Live
Label: Verve
Number/Track: Track 6
Duration: approx 4.25


DISC 2
Title: Contemplation
Artist: Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
Composer: Shorter
Album: Buhaina's delight
Label: Blue Note
Number/Track: 2435 78725-2 Track 2
Duration: 5.30


DISC 3:
Title: Roots and Herbs
Artist: Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers
Composer: Shorter
Album: Roots and Herbs
Label: Blue Note
Number/Track: 21956 Track 2
Duration:3.00


DISC 4:
Title: Fee Fi Fo Fum
Artist: Wayne Shorter
Composer: Shorter
Publisher:
Album: Speak No Evil
Label: Blue Note
Number/Track:
Duration: 5.50

DISC 5:
Title: Adam's Apple
Artist: Wayne Shorter
Composer: Shorter
Publisher:
Album: Adam's Apple
Label: Blue Note
Number/Track:
Duration: 6.48

DISC 6:
Title: Pinocchio
Artist: Miles Davis
Composer: Shorter
Publisher:
Album: Nefertiti
Label: Columbia
Number/Track: 467089 2 Track 6
Duration: 4.27

DISC 7:
Title: Stella By Stralight
Artist: VSOP
Composer:
Publisher:
Album: Live Under The Sky / Five Stars
Label: Columbia (Japan)
Number/Track: CD 1 Track 5
Duration: 5.04

DISC 8:
Title: The Peacocks
Artist: Wayne Shorter
Composer: Jimmy Rowles
Publisher:
Album: Dexter Gordon: Round Midnight (original soundtrack)
Label: Columbia
Number/Track: 507924-2 Track 6
Duration: 7.16

DISC 11:
Title: Atlantis
Artist: Wayne Shorter
Composer: Shorter
Album: Footprints Live
Label: Verve
Number/Track: 5435582 Track 7
Duration: 6.35

[Quarky]

Thanks for that, Alyn. I didn't manage to track that down when I looked for it recently.

A good case could be made out for rebroadcasting selected Jazz Library episodes, in my view.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yep a very good case!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

yep a very good case!

I THIRD THAT CASE. (Smokey Robinson)

But it aint going to happen because R3 has scheduled Wagner's 39th over the next 140 weeks.

BN

[Tenor Freak]

Well, I was thinking that Wayne hadn't changed at all over the years. The same Wayne with Miles, Weather Report, and his latest quartet. But on this Jazz Messengers track, his tone seems a bit harsher, more like Coltrane. Guess I ought to listen to more Jazz Messengers, but not much time available for listening.
.

5
Partly it was the environment in which he was playing (though Tony Williams also presented a "sound barrier" at times similar in magnitude to Blakey). But a key factor I think was the fact that Wayne changed horns some time around 1964-65 when Miles lent him the cash to buy a Selmer Mark VI. Before that he played on a George Bundy "stencil" tenor sax that was probably manufactured by Buescher - one of their Aristocrat models but sold under a different brand name (common practice in the 20s to the 60s). See here - this is not a Selmer:

This was the horn he played whilst he was in the Messengers and then on all those classic Blue Note dates from '64 such as Night Dreamer, Ju Ju and Speak No Evil. There is a definite softening of the edges of his tone by '65 or '66 (listen to Adam's Apple for example - even though the cover shows him on the Bundy). There's no softening of his intensity as a soloist, though. By all accounts the Bundy (manufactured around the early '40s so already over 20 years old) was knackered, and held together in time-honoured fashion with elastic bands. (I remember seeing Dick Morrissey's tenor looking like that.)

And if you want a right geekfest on his old horns may I direct you to this discussion: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...n-selmer-bundy

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

5
Partly it was the environment in which he was playing (though Tony Williams also presented a "sound barrier" at times similar in magnitude to Blakey). But a key factor I think was the fact that Wayne changed horns some time around 1964-65 when Miles lent him the cash to buy a Selmer Mark VI. Before that he played on a George Bundy "stencil" tenor sax that was probably manufactured by Buescher - one of their Aristocrat models but sold under a different brand name (common practice in the 20s to the 60s). See here - this is not a Selmer:

This was the horn he played whilst he was in the Messengers and then on all those classic Blue Note dates from '64 such as Night Dreamer, Ju Ju and Speak No Evil. There is a definite softening of the edges of his tone by '65 or '66 (listen to Adam's Apple for example - even though the cover shows him on the Bundy). There's no softening of his intensity as a soloist, though. By all accounts the Bundy (manufactured around the early '40s so already over 20 years old) was knackered, and held together in time-honoured fashion with elastic bands. (I remember seeing Dick Morrissey's tenor looking like that.)

And if you want a right geekfest on his old horns may I direct you to this discussion: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...n-selmer-bundy

In the R3 Jazz Legends series long long ago, Jean Toussaint said that Shorter had elements of Hank Mobley in his tone. I can hear a bit of that in his upper range/earlier recordings. Dont start shouting.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Hank Mobley is the polar opposite of Shorter. I'm amazed by that comment. I would say that Mobley has a really smooth tone and his playing is like the musical equivalent of wearing Hush Puppies. Shorter has become increasingly edgier and quirkier, especially on the soprano. I don't think his tone these days is a pure as it once was yet it was always had a hard quality about it. What I like about Shorter is that he is unpredictable. Mobley is exactly a "cliche" player but I would say he is of a different generation stylistically from what Shorter was going at the time. He is a far more comfortable player just as you could argue someone like Stanley Turrentine was. Bruce would have to comment on this but I think Mobley was probably very capable from a technical point of view - rather like a tenor Oscar Peterson, I suppose. Mobley never seemed to have the intonation issues that sometime occur with Shorter - especially on the more recent efforts although I would say that Shorter is far, far more imaginative than practically any other saxophonist since the Be-bop era. Very few match him in this respect. (Steve Lacy, Evan Parker, Joe Lovano??) To me, someone like Joe Henderson owes more to Mobley soundwise and again I would consider Henderson to have been a more formidable improvisor. Mobley could have been argued to have been a slicker and more "together" version of someone like James Moody, someone who perfected this Moody's kind of bop approach.

Wondered if anyone else had acquired the Gene Ammons set on Avid? I bought this for my Dad as a birthday present and the music is excellent. I'm amazed at how much he seems like Coleman Hawkins in the same era. It is pretty much run-of-the mill Modern Jazz in many respects, but hugely enjoyable. Recommened.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Hank Mobley is the polar opposite of Shorter. I'm amazed by that comment. I would say that Mobley has a really smooth tone and his playing is like the musical equivalent of wearing Hush Puppies. Shorter has become increasingly edgier and quirkier, especially on the soprano. I don't think his tone these days is a pure as it once was yet it was always had a hard quality about it. What I like about Shorter is that he is unpredictable. Mobley is exactly a "cliche" player but I would say he is of a different generation stylistically from what Shorter was going at the time. He is a far more comfortable player just as you could argue someone like Stanley Turrentine was. Bruce would have to comment on this but I think Mobley was probably very capable from a technical point of view - rather like a tenor Oscar Peterson, I suppose. Mobley never seemed to have the intonation issues that sometime occur with Shorter - especially on the more recent efforts although I would say that Shorter is far, far more imaginative than practically any other saxophonist since the Be-bop era. Very few match him in this respect. (Steve Lacy, Evan Parker, Joe Lovano??) To me, someone like Joe Henderson owes more to Mobley soundwise and again I would consider Henderson to have been a more formidable improvisor. Mobley could have been argued to have been a slicker and more "together" version of someone like James Moody, someone who perfected this Moody's kind of bop approach.

Wondered if anyone else had acquired the Gene Ammons set on Avid? I bought this for my Dad as a birthday present and the music is excellent. I'm amazed at how much he seems like Coleman Hawkins in the same era. It is pretty much run-of-the mill Modern Jazz in many respects, but hugely enjoyable. Recommened.

See, I dont hear any Mobley in Henderson but I do get a hint in Wayne's upper register on earlier ballads. Not a connection I would have made before Toussaint said it. Agree about Gene Ammons, lovely stuff within his own zone.His take on Angel Eyes is stunning. Almost up there with David S Ware! My other fav very different version/deconstruction of it.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

It's funny how tenor saxophonists seem to get talked about being influenced by each other. There always seems to be two schools or dominant influences at any one time whether it is Coleman Hawkins or Lester Young or Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane. There is a degree of truth in it yet also alot of generalisation. These days, the tenor seems to be wrestling with a post-Brecker dilemna and you can almost hear the tenor split between the more aggressive approach from someone like David S Ware (who himself seems like an avant garde off-shoot from Ben Webster) and players with a lighter approach like Joshua Redman or Mark Turner. I think Brecker had an amazing influence on the likes of players such as Donny McCaslin and it is fascinating just how little influence on styles Coltrane seems to have. Coltrane doesn't have the pull he had in the 1980's and it strikes me as fascinating that Wayne Shorter seems far more of a mover and shaker as far as influence in concerned in the 2010's. The "Hard bop" school of the likes of Mobley seems almost absent and even players with a reputation of playing bop like Brnaford Marsalis, are actually doing a lot more with how they play.

I've found it really refreshing checking out some players like Keefe Jackson who seem to have totally by-passed the trends of the last thirty years and just picked up from where the music left off in the late 60's. Check this out. Jazzrook will dig this too:-

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Bluesnik

It's funny how tenor saxophonists seem to get talked about being influenced by each other. There always seems to be two schools or dominant influences at any one time whether it is Coleman Hawkins or Lester Young or Sonny Rollins and John Coltrane. There is a degree of truth in it yet also alot of generalisation. These days, the tenor seems to be wrestling with a post-Brecker dilemna and you can almost hear the tenor split between the more aggressive approach from someone like David S Ware (who himself seems like an avant garde off-shoot from Ben Webster) and players with a lighter approach like Joshua Redman or Mark Turner. I think Brecker had an amazing influence on the likes of players such as Donny McCaslin and it is fascinating just how little influence on styles Coltrane seems to have. Coltrane doesn't have the pull he had in the 1980's and it strikes me as fascinating that Wayne Shorter seems far more of a mover and shaker as far as influence in concerned in the 2010's. The "Hard bop" school of the likes of Mobley seems almost absent and even players with a reputation of playing bop like Brnaford Marsalis, are actually doing a lot more with how they play.

I've found it really refreshing checking out some players like Keefe Jackson who seem to have totally by-passed the trends of the last thirty years and just picked up from where the music left off in the late 60's. Check this out. Jazzrook will dig this too:-

I think that Coltrane was such a dominant figure, such that Brecker and Grossman etc used to pass his tapes around as tablets from Zion, that there was bound to be a reaction. I had a much younger friend of that era who now teaches saxophone at university. Dont they all. He was very anti Coltrane and when I gave him David Murray's The Hill he became an instant Murrayite. This was the new
dawn and the new God had spoken. Well....

Talkin bout that generation.


BN.

I DO agree that there are a lot of very interesting players around now. The guy who plays with Roy Hargrove impressed me a lot.