What jazz is about and what it isn't

[Serial_Apologist]

And before the shouting starts check out "The Albatross" on the box set...timeless.


BN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY09qJDhm9A

Went down to The Clocktower in Croydon to hear Don Weller this lunchtime. A sad occasion as I believe pianist Richard Madgwick, who died a couple of days ago, was supposed to be backing Don. Rich, who was generally agreed to be something of a character, was not particularly known outside the S London circuit, though he was the regular joanna man with the John Miller Orchestra doing the seaside piers as can probably be imagined, and always had some resentment about the few calls made in his direction, though he backed singers in duo situations magnificently and could always rattle off a couple of choruses "unclichayed" soloing on the most unlikely 60s pop material they would ask him to sight read, and I once saw him back Peter King brilliantly - a man with exacting requirements, particularly being able to cover fast tempos a la Tubby. Anyway, John Horler stepped in magnificently and the bass was occupied by Andy Cleyndert, associated by most probably with Stan Tracey.

Don played as well as I've heard him on a series of standards, always with that immediately recognisable tone and phrasing. Here he is playing a ballad as only he can in August 2011 at a place not known to me, which must have been a couple of months before he himself underwent heart bypass surgery, from which he now appears completely recovered:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmH7LRd1GAQ

[Ian Thumwood]

I think that the current Wayne Shorter quartet is probably the most influencial jazz group of the 21st century. It is staggering at how many other musicians are commenting upon this band being an influence and even musicians of the calibre of Dave Douglas have been in awe.

When I met up with my friend Alain back in the summer I was fascinated by his assessment of Shorter insofar that he rated him as a composer but couldn't stand the sound on his horn. Given that Alain has backed the likes of Hank Mobley, Nathan Davis , Dizzy Reece and Slide Hampton on drums, he is someone I tend to listen to as his opinion is always interesting and unexpected. I suppose his views tend to reflect Bluesnik's more than anyone else on this board. He strongly felt that George Coleman as unjustly neglected and made a comment about how difficult it has been for saxophonists to step outside of the shadow of Coltrane. Alain stated that even Michael Brecker was heavily indebted to Coltrane - I think this is probably true to a degree although he conceded that Brecker was better equipped from a harmonic point of view. Whenever we meet up Alain always comes up with some interesting viewpoints but I was surprised by his dismissal of Shorter and couldn't believe that he was so negative about his playing.

What is odd about the "Albatross" track (other than the fact that he sounds very much like one of his ballads from one of the Blue Note albums) is that the music actually doesn't sound anything like Coltrane and nor does it really hint at what he plays these days. His phrasing has totally changed. He still sounds like himself in other respects and the band behind him sounds great too. I'm surprised that the later quartet appealed to Bluesnik as it does not swing in the traditional sense. Time-wise, the feel with which he approached ballads back 1960 seems far more confident than many of his then contemporaries. That said, the present quartet remains his best working group in my opinion and is criminally under-represented on disc even though there is stack of stuff by the quartet on Youtube. If jazz follows the cues from this band, the future is extremely bright for the music. Indeed, I think that 2013 has already seen some sensational releases that will remain highly considered in the future, I am sure. The latest discs by Hollenbeck, Nichols, Shorter and Binney are as good as anything recorded in the lengendary year of 1959 and even something like Dave Douglas' last disc shows now diminution in his exceptional quality. The latest Binney album "Lifted Land" seems particularly inspired by Shorter even if the alto player has his own very unqiue approach to writing. I would thoroughly recommend Binney's Criss Cross records to Bluesnik and it is even more of a shame that Mr Improv is no longer around for as a fan of Paul Desmond and free playing, he would have loved this latest disc.

Is jazz going to hell in a hand-cart? After the proliferation of piano trios in the 2000's, the music seems to have regained it's confidence as I feel that we are in a "golden era" if you choose to look in the right and not necessarily obvious places. Shorter remains central to what is great about jazz today just as he was in 1960.

If there is an issue today, it is that many CD's aren't actually representative of the way artists perform live . This is especially the case with discs now being liteered with "special guests" on a number of tracks or with a working group having a member replaced by a more illustrious name in order to shift the numbers. For me, this is a big bear as is the fact that some groups seem a bit over-produced on records. For me, some of the better discs of late have been on labels like delmark or Criss Cross who have a more unfussy and genuine approach to what they release. If any label reflects the ethos of something like the old Blue notes, Riversides, etc, it is probably one like Criss Cross who seem to genuinely base their releases on earlier models.

[Serial_Apologist]

Alain stated that even Michael Brecker was heavily indebted to Coltrane - I think this is probably true to a degree although he conceded that Brecker was better equipped from a harmonic point of view.

I think I would want to ask Alain in what sense he considered Mike Brecker "better equipped" harmonically than 'Trane!

Anyway, apart from which, good comments Ian. And in keeping, Trish Clowes is doing the duty on next Mondays Jazz on 3, "selecting highlights from Shorter's performance with his current quartet, recorded on Jazz on 3 over the past 12 years", it says in RT. Trish is a great Joe Lovano fan too, btw, as I believe you are?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think that the current Wayne Shorter quartet is probably the most influencial jazz group of the 21st century. It is staggering at how many other musicians are commenting upon this band being an influence and even musicians of the calibre of Dave Douglas have been in awe.

When I met up with my friend Alain back in the summer I was fascinated by his assessment of Shorter insofar that he rated him as a composer but couldn't stand the sound on his horn. Given that Alain has backed the likes of Hank Mobley, Nathan Davis , Dizzy Reece and Slide Hampton on drums, he is someone I tend to listen to as his opinion is always interesting and unexpected. I suppose his views tend to reflect Bluesnik's more than anyone else on this board. He strongly felt that George Coleman as unjustly neglected and made a comment about how difficult it has been for saxophonists to step outside of the shadow of Coltrane. Alain stated that even Michael Brecker was heavily indebted to Coltrane - I think this is probably true to a degree although he conceded that Brecker was better equipped from a harmonic point of view. Whenever we meet up Alain always comes up with some interesting viewpoints but I was surprised by his dismissal of Shorter and couldn't believe that he was so negative about his playing.

What is odd about the "Albatross" track (other than the fact that he sounds very much like one of his ballads from one of the Blue Note albums) is that the music actually doesn't sound anything like Coltrane and nor does it really hint at what he plays these days. His phrasing has totally changed. He still sounds like himself in other respects and the band behind him sounds great too. I'm surprised that the later quartet appealed to Bluesnik as it does not swing in the traditional sense. Time-wise, the feel with which he approached ballads back 1960 seems far more confident than many of his then contemporaries. That said, the present quartet remains his best working group in my opinion and is criminally under-represented on disc even though there is stack of stuff by the quartet on Youtube. If jazz follows the cues from this band, the future is extremely bright for the music. Indeed, I think that 2013 has already seen some sensational releases that will remain highly considered in the future, I am sure. The latest discs by Hollenbeck, Nichols, Shorter and Binney are as good as anything recorded in the lengendary year of 1959 and even something like Dave Douglas' last disc shows now diminution in his exceptional quality. The latest Binney album "Lifted Land" seems particularly inspired by Shorter even if the alto player has his own very unqiue approach to writing. I would thoroughly recommend Binney's Criss Cross records to Bluesnik and it is even more of a shame that Mr Improv is no longer around for as a fan of Paul Desmond and free playing, he would have loved this latest disc.

Is jazz going to hell in a hand-cart? After the proliferation of piano trios in the 2000's, the music seems to have regained it's confidence as I feel that we are in a "golden era" if you choose to look in the right and not necessarily obvious places. Shorter remains central to what is great about jazz today just as he was in 1960.

If there is an issue today, it is that many CD's aren't actually representative of the way artists perform live . This is especially the case with discs now being liteered with "special guests" on a number of tracks or with a working group having a member replaced by a more illustrious name in order to shift the numbers. For me, this is a big bear as is the fact that some groups seem a bit over-produced on records. For me, some of the better discs of late have been on labels like delmark or Criss Cross who have a more unfussy and genuine approach to what they release. If any label reflects the ethos of something like the old Blue notes, Riversides, etc, it is probably one like Criss Cross who seem to genuinely base their releases on earlier models.

Ian, we disagree on politics, film, history...and a lot of wbat I think is classic and timeless. Waynes current quartet is we agree, remarkable. Let it go at that.

BN.

[antongould]

Gentlemen can I commend you all on, to even a novice, a totally fascinating thread. I like a fair bit of Britten, Winter Words being a special favourite but don't see him as a Gershwin. I heard the for Goodman thing on a R3 concert recently and was not impressed - seemed to fall between all available stools.

[Ian Thumwood]

S-A

As much as I love Coltrane's music, I think that Mike Brecker had the business of understanding harmony / scales / chord voicings down in a manner that reflects the fact that there was about thirty years difference between the players. I'd agree with my friend on this one and it is quite clear if you listen closely. I wish i cpould transcribe music as it would be interesting to present the evidence on the staves. Obviously there would be no Brecker without Coltrane but if you look at the lead sheets for Coltrane's music and most players from 80's onwards it's pretty clear that the harmonic language has changed. Coltrane's music comes from studying scales extensively and then doing the intervallic things whereby you can build pairs of triads off these scales to suggest other keys. Have you got the Walt Wieskoft book about this as it was an eye opener for me even if I can never remember which traids can be derived from the different chords. (I'm not talking of flattening / augmenting 9th, 11ths, 13ths, etc but something differerent.) Alot of the progressions he used were either based on standards, blues or modal devices with a couple of scales. By the end of his career I suppose he had this stuff under his belt to such a degree that he could go anywhere.

If you look at a lot of modern composers it is extremely fascinating. I've down-loaded quite a few lead sheets from websites of the likes of David Binney, Dave Douglas and Miguel Zenon as well as having acquired a collection of books by the likes of Frisell, Tom Harrell and Pat Metheny. I'm fascinated to see how these tunes work and i sometimes rehearse then with a couple of friends to pretty awful results on my part! Some of these tunes are impossible to play but it is interesting none-the-less. For me, three composers that i have seen lead sheets for from earlier generations match the notions that are now common place. These are Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and Herbie Nichols. Both use wierd chord progressions and Nichols even employs the kinds of exotic scales that Brecker mifht have appreciated. I suppose Nichols was more a master of creating unusual structures / form. What you find in contemporary jazz is lack of obvious chord changes (II-V-I patterns, for example ) and sequences of chords which seem unrelated. You can pick these lead sheets up for about £3 from various musician's sites and they are often charts for a whole band. i.e. Great value for money. You can also get books of Metheny and Frisell;s music as well as some of the more wayward Aebersold play-a-longs. You also get people writing sketchy motif's which done have changes written out and that really frustrate the hell out of me as I haven't a clue as to what you do with these! You also notice that the chords are often voiced without a root and have a note from another key instead. You find that chords are frequently inverted and the bass notes might belong to another key. This is where we need someone like Richard Barrett for help! The long and short of it is that the music sounds totally different from anything from Coltrane's era with the exception of the likes of Shorter and Hancock. Even writers like Carla Bley use pretty orthodox harmony in comparison - speaking as a fan, by the way. Other than her,
the only other more orthodox composer I have collected a few lead sheets by Eri Yamamoto and she likes to use a lot of pentatonic harmonies in her music.

I'll give you an example of a more "straight forward" Dave Douglas tune which opens with a 3 bar intro of B flat min , Aflat sus and E flat min. The actual tune then progress with these same 3 chords which resolve on D flat 7 #5 , the four bars of which are then repeated. This isn't too unusual but the next sequence is B maj 7, B flat min, A flat major with A natural at the root before going on to F sus, E flat min, D flat maj, D flat half dim, G7 (no A flat accidental in this chord !) before the B section progress as G flat 7 / C root, E maj 7, G flat 7 with C at the root and E maj 7. The final 4 bars are G7 / C root, E maj and two bars of D sus7. If you have a copy of The Real Book you will quickly see that none of the Coltrane pieces in it are anywhere near as complex. This tune isn't too unorthodox for Dave Douglas either!!

Hope that this is of interest!

Years ago I went to a lecture given by Mike Brecker and he explained alot of how he dealt with music and everyone came away in awe not only for his knowledge and how he applied it but also his exceptional ability to communicate his ideas to an audience made up of enthusiastic amateurs and students. He was heavily in to transcribing music to understand how it worked.

The language has charged markedly since Coltrane and Michael Brecker was instrumental in that respect.

[Quarky]

I think it was Monk who said " who knows where jazz is going...to hell in a handcart?" BUT Ive been listening to two superb things this week, Wayne Shorters 2006 set at the Barbican and the early Wayne Proper box set. A remarkable continuity even allowiing for the greater maturity etc. Make of this what you will for progress.

BN.

Without prejudging next week's Jon3 on Wayne Shorter, which I guess will not be a straight emulation of Jazz Library, could you give me some recommendations for Wayne's later Contemporary years, post Weather Report?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

basically all of them after he left Weather Report [surprisingly few]

these are classics imho
Footprints Live!
Alegría
Beyond the Sound Barrier
Without a Net

[Ian Thumwood]

I would generally agree but the studio album "allegria" is pribably the lesser of the four. The others, all recorded live, are uniformly excellent . The first includes alot of material re-visited from earlier albums whereas "Beond the sound barrier" includes some exceptional new and newer tunes. The ltest offering is also excpetional (apart from the cover art!) but it does include a woodwind outfit on one track which adds to the interest.

The earlier "Hi life" includes a variety of ensembles and is slightly more electronic but is unfairly over-looked in my opinion as the writing is so strong on this disc.

[Quarky]

Thanks for that.

Well four or so CDs is not going to break the bank, so it looks like I can get up to speed without a lot of trouble.

Nothing in Jazz library archives for Wayne?

[Quarky]

basically all of them after he left Weather Report [surprisingly few]

these are classics imho
Footprints Live!
Alegría
Beyond the Sound Barrier
Without a Net

Calum - what's happened to your heads-up threads for the forthcoming week of Jazz broadcasts? Sorely missed!

Nearly missed Geoffrey Smith on Wayne Shorter.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er didn't think any one noticed i had stopped Oddball! .... after the redecorating is done and the new kit is installed and in gwo, mebbe the usual service will resume eh?

[Quarky]

I would generally agree but the studio album "allegria" is pribably the lesser of the four. The others, all recorded live, are uniformly excellent . The first includes alot of material re-visited from earlier albums whereas "Beond the sound barrier" includes some exceptional new and newer tunes. The ltest offering is also excpetional (apart from the cover art!) but it does include a woodwind outfit on one track which adds to the interest.

The earlier "Hi life" includes a variety of ensembles and is slightly more electronic but is unfairly over-looked in my opinion as the writing is so strong on this disc.

OK Beyond the Sound Barrier ordered. Don't normally bother with MP3 downloads, but Amazon do have a free MP3 download via Amazon Cloud, when a CD is ordered, so I am now happily listening to it.

My only question is why Wayne did not play this stuff immediately after leaving Miles Second Quartet, instead of spending many years out in the wilderness of Weather Report?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Weather Report wilderness? ...surely not ....

mebbe paying a few bills and alimony type stuff had something to do with it ... musicians got used to eating when they played with Miles ...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Weather Report wilderness? ...surely not ....

mebbe paying a few bills and alimony type stuff had something to do with it ... musicians got used to eating when they played with Miles ...

Cynic as I am Calum, I don't think it was merely follow the money. Wayne at that time prob thought he had taken the Miles free bop as far as he could and turned to textures. And a quieter life. He had been playing at full stretch for over a decade. When he came back to acoustic jazz he said he had nothing left to lose or prove. A bit like Ed Miliband.

BN.