What jazz is about and what it isn't

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4029

    What jazz is about and what it isn't

    It never ceases to amaze just how wrong we tend to get jazz in the UK. A brochure for the up-coming season at the Theatre Royal in Winchester fell through my letter box this morning and although I have heard both Oregon and Kenny Wheeler preform at this venue in the past, the quota of jazz is usually very small and typically pretty conservative. I think the last gig I went to was Courtney Pine which was entertaining enough. This autumn, anyone who is so inclined can book tickets to hear this:-

    Look, Stranger: New jazz arrangements of Britten songs performed with the poetry of WH Auden Full of stunning harmonies, ingenious rhythms and wide-ranging musical influences, the songs of Benjamin Britten seem to lend themselves to jazz exploration.


    No further details are given as to the musicians other than the leader Ruthie Culver ( a new name to me) although the actors making the readings seem to be given great prominence that the sidemen. (Plough a little deeper in to the website and the names of some equally obscure musicians are revealed. )There was a thread a few year ago about jazz and poetry which illustrated that there are fans but I wonder just how many people will be enthused at hearing jazz versions of poems originally set to music by Benjamin Britten?

    The previous thread about keith Jarrett was interesting and informative and whilst there were fans of his solo and trio work, there seemed to be a concensus on this board that what he was producing was a body of serious music. Fundemental to his work was an endeavour to fully express his skills as an improvisor and this is something that he has shared with the great masters of the past. It is hard for me to reconcile this approach which I suppose can trace its origins from Sidney Bechet through nearly 90 years to attempt to perform Britten's work in a jazz style. It seems to me that the strengths of the results will still rest with the works of the composer as opposed to those carrying out the improvising. In jazz, composition has usually gone hand in hand with improvisation as the written parts are usually assmebled to show case the soloist - even if for a series of 8 bar breaks as was the case with alot of composing in the 78 rpm era. Creating "serious" jazz is about having an approach that reflects the ideas of a Jarrett or a Paul Bley. It could equally be about greating music for dancing such as the big band swing of Count Basie or having a popular appeal of Ella Fitzgerald.

    I usually like to argue that jazz is a broad church and consider myself to have a varied and eclectic taste. The combination of jazz and Britten seems a step too far for my interest and whilst the sample suggests an approach akin to someone like Norma Winstone, I can't help thinking as to why the classical / jazz crossovers seem to be so popular in th UK. The results are frequently mixed with the music where classical music tries to compromise with jazz as opposed to a "jazzing the classics" approach sometimes sounding a bit cheesy. There are examples such as the group with Kenny Barron and Stefon Harris where the musical intelligence of the performers have succeeded and I am not totally opposed to these mix and match efforts. However, Britten seems so far removed from what jazz is actually about that it is difficult not to be annoyed as opposed to having my natural curiousity. I can't imagine how a key component like the blues would fit in to the interpretation of Britten's music as his compositions seem just too straight laced.

    Increasingly, I prefer to listen to jazz that hasn't been f*cked around with. Listening to the likes of someone like David Binney, for example, the music is as intelligent and creative in it's field as anything Britten composed. The best jazz has a degree of bite about it and it should never be twee. It's a bit like Mitterand's description of the French tripe sausage (the andouillette) where he said " the best sausages were those where you could taste the shit." Whilst I have never been able to eat one of these again after reading that description, I think it also hold fast for jazz. The best jazz has an edge to it whether we are talking King Oliver, Duke Ellington, Miles, Jackie McLean , William Parker or John Zorn. Jazzing up Benjamin Britten just doesn't do it. No one in the States is likely consider doing this even if , like Peter Erskine, they are fans of English composers. It is just wrong and, in this case, very , very wrong. With all the many great jazz composers whose works are under-performed, it seems a gimmick to perform the works of this cringingly awful English classical composer in a jazz vein. Jazz-lite for people who don't really "get" jazz. I would also have to say that nothing would appear to be as removed from jazz's origins as the seminal Black artistic statement than Britten's music. Granted that it is 100 years since Britten's centenary but I am sure there other jazz perfomers who were born in 1913 whose work could have been toured around the provinces of the UK.

    In summary, what may have seemed like an interesting idea of paper is so divorced from "real" jazz that it is difficult to decide who this would appeal to. No doubt the host of celebrated actors contributing will also add interest yet it jazz is supposed to be "as hinest as your life" this is surely a farce that has little to do with what jazz is really about.



    End of rant before I turn in to Trevor Cooper!!

    Ian
    Last edited by Ian Thumwood; 05-08-13, 19:04.
  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4029

    #2
    Just found this on Youtube which sums up for me what jazz should be about:-

    Comment

    • Quarky
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 2628

      #3
      Off the cuff, and my memory probably faulty, the closest Britten got to Jazz, was an unfinshed Clarinet concerto, which had something of a jazz tinge, which was written during Britten's stay in USA. It was offered to Benny Goodman, who didn't want it. It was finished by another composer and performed recently by NOW.

      For once, my memory serves me well - from Gramophone:

      Britten began writing a Clarinet Concerto for Benny Goodman in 1941, during his final months in the US. The first movement was complete (in short score) when he returned to the UK in 1942 but the project was abandoned. Matthews has orchestrated this rhythmically playful piece as well as the 1941 Mazurka elegiaca (originally for two pianos), and filled out the sketches for another unfinished work from this same period to create three ‘Movements for a Clarinet Concerto’. It’s an attractive and sturdy score that brings to light some marvellous music. Indeed, the wave-like passages in the first movement foreshadow Peter Grimes.

      here it is:
      United States West Coast Premiere of Britten / Matthews Movements for a Clarinet Concerto. Curious Flights Symphony Orchestra led by Alasdair Neale, with Bre...
      Last edited by Quarky; 06-08-13, 14:53.

      Comment

      • Richard Barrett

        #4
        Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
        I can't help thinking as to why the classical / jazz crossovers seem to be so popular in the UK.
        Not only in the UK though - what about Uri Caine? or Miles's take on Rodrigo's guitar concerto? or Jacques Loussier? and that's barely scratching the surface.

        Now I absolutely can't stand Britten's music, and that in itself would put me off any attempt to jazz it up - which presumably in this case means throw in a bit more syncopation, reorchestrate it and add more vibrato and other stock "jazzy" inflections (though the aforementioned Uri Caine in his explorations of for example Mahler goes a great deal further than this, which for me makes his work quite interesting). But the main reason for the project you're talking about is surely just to cash in on the Britten centenary, and it's for people who are interested in Britten rather than for people who are interested in jazz.

        I don't think it's particularly fruitful to make hard and fast judgements on what is and isn't jazz (or what is and isn't music, for that matter), which reminds me of the recent discussion of Anthony Braxton. I've played at plenty of jazz venues and festivals, and with people who are associated with the jazz tradition in one way or another, and while I wouldn't describe myself as a jazz musician in any way, I wouldn't describe myself as a "classical" one either. I just don't think these labels or any others for that matter, are adequate to cover a lot of the kinds of music I personally am most interested in. I think there's a way for music to be open to anything and everything without being "eclectic" in the superficial kind of way represented by this Britten+jazz fusion thing. It's a question of being "as honest as your life", which isn't the exclusive property of jazz musicians, only of musicians who try to involve themselves in creativity at a deeper level than for example picking two styles off a shelf and shoving them together.

        Comment

        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 36811

          #5
          Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
          Not only in the UK though - what about Uri Caine? or Miles's take on Rodrigo's guitar concerto? or Jacques Loussier? and that's barely scratching the surface.

          Now I absolutely can't stand Britten's music, and that in itself would put me off any attempt to jazz it up - which presumably in this case means throw in a bit more syncopation, reorchestrate it and add more vibrato and other stock "jazzy" inflections (though the aforementioned Uri Caine in his explorations of for example Mahler goes a great deal further than this, which for me makes his work quite interesting). But the main reason for the project you're talking about is surely just to cash in on the Britten centenary, and it's for people who are interested in Britten rather than for people who are interested in jazz.

          I don't think it's particularly fruitful to make hard and fast judgements on what is and isn't jazz (or what is and isn't music, for that matter), which reminds me of the recent discussion of Anthony Braxton. I've played at plenty of jazz venues and festivals, and with people who are associated with the jazz tradition in one way or another, and while I wouldn't describe myself as a jazz musician in any way, I wouldn't describe myself as a "classical" one either. I just don't think these labels or any others for that matter, are adequate to cover a lot of the kinds of music I personally am most interested in. I think there's a way for music to be open to anything and everything without being "eclectic" in the superficial kind of way represented by this Britten+jazz fusion thing. It's a question of being "as honest as your life", which isn't the exclusive property of jazz musicians, only of musicians who try to involve themselves in creativity at a deeper level than for example picking two styles off a shelf and shoving them together.
          At certain points in time music can appear to be in a state of readiness to reach out at several places for that next step - as with the major/minor diatonic usurpation of the old church modes around 1600, the arrival of atonality around 1908, and the embrace of "noise" by Varese and one or two others in Italy, Russia and the US around the end of WW1. Jazz seems to have grasped its chances with 20th century modernism in the 1950s and '60s, at around a time when it had itself, in the different hands of Mingus, Russell, Dolphy, Taylor et al, succeeded in taking on the euroclassical tradition and using what it needed to advance itself on its own terms, rather than merely adding a few spicy harmonies or Stravinskyian syncopations to what it had already adapted from white music. My view is that such moments benchmark important historical moments outside just the artistic when connections come out of struggle and spotlight previously unperceived unities of interest, history and the historic take on and engender possibilities rather than being resorted to out of desperately sensing a lacking of anything new - recognition of which may be tantamount, I think, to answering the rhetorical in Ian's opening posing question for this thread.

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4029

            #6
            Richard / SA

            Oddily enough, I have the Uri Caine Mahler CD and it is very good. I'd forgotten about this to be honest and the pther examples cited also work for me - with the exception of Louissier. However, whilst I agree (to a degree ) about categories of music, I think that jazz can become diluted in certain occasions when blended with other music.

            The main issue for me was the fact that this is being attempted with Britten's music. It seems to be more of a tie-in for the centenary of Britten and perhaps aimed at a "classical" audience that being of much interest to jazz fans. I know nothing of the musicians involved and thought the sample was a bit twee but perhaps no more than say the work of someone like Michael Garrick's records. Atleast when Miles and Caines tackled jazz, the results had some guts. I suppose the problem is that, like quite a bit of English jazz, the music comes across as being a bit pastoral and too polite.

            I wasn't aware of Britten writing music for Goodman and I can understand his lack of enthusiasm. It is impossible to judge someone like Mahler's perception of jazz as he died before it started to be performed. We can assume that Bach would have been a jazz fan for the way he used harmony and the improvisatory nature of much of his music. As far as I am aware, Britten expressed no interest in jazz and his music was more informed by earlier forms of English music. There is no "connection" between Britten's music and jazz and, as far as I am concerned, Britten is pretty devisive. I've only ever heard one jazz musician stick up for him and that is Colin Towns - another composer and one that also has had his fingers in other pies such as rock and film music. (At which point I would add I like Town's music and enjoy his enthusiasm for music too.)

            My point is that there are certain pieces of music which would take an incredible amount of imgaination to re-work in to successful jazz. I don't doubt that you can improvise of the music but the choice of this repertoire would, at the very least, be extremely eccentric. Britten seems to be one such composer. You could prpbably add the likes of Andrew Lloyd Webber , ABBA or Morrisey to the mix too. Some things in music just seem wrong. Blending jazz and Britten , to me, seems a good example.

            Comment

            • Richard Barrett

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
              Some things in music just seem wrong. Blending jazz and Britten , to me, seems a good example.
              I won't argue with that.

              Comment

              • Alyn_Shipton
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 765

                #8
                It seems to me Ian's question is about two different things - the success or otherwise of jazz/classical fusions, and the suitability or not of Britten's work for this. The first question is at least partly underpinned by the desire of promoters and record companies to sell jazz to the concert hall and CD buying segment of the public that still spends a lot of money on classical music. Loussier's entire career has been on taking a gentle version of jazz to non-jazz audiences. But there have been plenty of jazz musicians who have successfully mined classical material from the early days, without compromising the essential jazz qualities of their work. I'm thinking of Art Tatum's interpretations of Dvorak and Massenet, through to Ellington's re-working of Grieg's Peer Gynt. I did a Radio 3 programme some years ago with Franz Koglmann about his explorations of the 2nd Viennese school - not an obvious source for jazz inspiration, but as it turned out a very interesting area of his work. The small sample of the Britten material on the link Ian posted does no favours to Britten or jazz. Anodyne, gutless, weak. Unlike posters above, I am a great enthusiast for Britten, from the operas to the chamber music, and from the symphonic work to the liturgical stuff. I've played plenty of it, and attended concerts for lots more. But harmonically and in terms of its aesthetic, it isn't obvious source material for jazz. Yet I might have said that about Elgar and Vaughan Williams, only to find that John Surman's string and choral writing develops directly from that tradition, very successfully. It needs someone with Surman's strengths as an individual jazz voice to tackle as complex a composer as Britten to explore its possibilities as a source for improvisation or compositional language, not, I'm sorry to say, a relatively obscure singer with what appears to be an extremely lightweight approach.

                Comment

                • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                  Late member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 9173

                  #9
                  way to go ian ..... jazz third stream was never that popular in my yoof .... but still is with me; Schuller etc ... that Lenox School eh? not to mention John Lewis and Eric Dolphy performing Kurt Weill; ... i would distinguish between a bad idea in the first place [jazzing up Britten] and a bad delivery of an idea that might well be a good one [Loussier's early Bach, somewhere in his middle period he learned to really swing and his later outings are far less clunky] and i would add to Alyn's excellent observations that John Surman's Dowland is pretty fine ..... and let us remember Tim Garland's compositions and improvising too .....

                  Schuller in 1996 gave some interesting foretaste of all this in his Tanner Lectures on jazz proposing that the growing breadth of skills and interests of musicians would drive hybridisation and convergences in a world of music making more akin to Richard's views above ....
                  According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                  Comment

                  • cloughie
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2011
                    • 21992

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                    However, Britten seems so far removed from what jazz is actually about that it is difficult not to be annoyed as opposed to having my natural curiousity. I can't imagine how a key component like the blues would fit in to the interpretation of Britten's music as his compositions seem just too straight laced.
                    Jazzing up Benjamin Britten just doesn't do it.
                    It depends what bits of Britten you chose. I find a lot of his vocal stuff, particularly his folk-song settings very leave aloneanble. However I could imagine his sea interludes from Peter Grimes quite attractive for jazz playing about with, particularly if the passacaglia is included, and how about a 'Non-jazzers guide to the Jazz combo'. Sometimes you jazzers don't think outside the box!

                    Billy May or Ellington would have done big band arrangements...
                    MJQ would have picked up the vibes...

                    The Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge are pretty cool....

                    ... and how about some Keith Tippett does Michael Tippett?
                    Last edited by cloughie; 06-08-13, 10:31.

                    Comment

                    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 4220

                      #11
                      Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                      It depends what bits of Britten you chose. I find a lot of his vocal stuff, particularly his folk-song settings very leave aloneanble. However I could imagine his sea interludes from Peter Grimes quite attractive for jazz playing about with, particularly if the passacaglia is included, and how about a 'Non-jazzers guide to the Jazz combo'. Sometimes you jazzers don't think outside the box!

                      Billy May or Ellington would have done big band arrangements...
                      MJQ would have picked up the vibes...

                      The Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge are pretty cool....


                      ... and how about some Keith Tippett does Michael Tippett?
                      *******
                      I always thought Bartok would work well in a jazz context and Peter King did some interesting things.

                      Why not more cello in jazz....I was watching Tom Harrel play Ravel with a string quartet...very affecting.

                      BN.

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 36811

                        #12
                        Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                        It depends what bits of Britten you chose. I find a lot of his vocal stuff, particularly his folk-song settings very leave aloneanble. However I could imagine his sea interludes from Peter Grimes quite attractive for jazz playing about with, particularly if the passacaglia is included, and how about a 'Non-jazzers guide to the Jazz combo'. Sometimes you jazzers don't think outside the box!

                        Billy May or Ellington would have done big band arrangements...
                        MJQ would have picked up the vibes...

                        The Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge are pretty cool....

                        ... and how about some Keith Tippett does Michael Tippett?


                        The bass player Pete Brandt once introduced the former as "Sir Keith Tippett".

                        Comment

                        • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 4220

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post


                          The bass player Pete Brandt once introduced the former as "Sir Keith Tippett".
                          Donald Byrd wrote a very hip blues avec Coltrane called Tippin in honour of both of em. Although it had another meaning.


                          Dont forget Charlie Parker offered to work for VARESE as a cook...great fried chicken...if he would show him compostion.

                          More VARESE, less fuckin fascist Wagner....please Wodger.

                          BN.

                          Comment

                          • Serial_Apologist
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 36811

                            #14
                            Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
                            Donald Byrd wrote a very hip blues avec Coltrane called Tippin in honour of both of em. Although it had another meaning.


                            Dont forget Charlie Parker offered to work for VARESE as a cook...great fried chicken...if he would show him compostion.

                            More VARESE, less fuckin fascist Wagner....please Wodger.

                            BN.


                            Varese a jolly good fellow


                            Comment

                            • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 4220

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post


                              Varese a jolly good fellow


                              Anyone who writes a piece including angry ducks quacking in Central Park is OK with me.

                              Paint Your Wagner would have had em shot.

                              VIVE LE RESISTANCE!


                              BN.

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