One grand boulevard with trees...one grand cafe in sun with strong black coffee ....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Alyn is on the sunny side of the street, nice work if you can be the sweetheart of sigmund freud eh.....

Geoffrey is in the Autumn already, ok so the weather is bad but it is still only May [Woody Herman innit]

Claire is practising her mambo moves:

Claire Martin presents a duo piano concert set by Alex Wilson and Cesar Correa recorded at the Pizza Express jazz club in Soho, London as part of the Steinway Piano Festival. The performance also features accompaniment from Elpidio Caicedo on bass and Will Fry on percussion. Alex Wilson has just released his 9th studio album 'Trio' his first with an acoustic piano trio and is well know for his love of Latin grooves. Peruvian pianist Correa studied classical piano at the Carlos Valderrama Conservatory in Trujillo and displays a romantic and lyrical edge to his playing in this set recorded on the opeing night of this year's Steinway Piano Festival now in its 5th year. Also, Claire will be chatting to musician, band leader and London's 606 jazz club owner Steve Ruby, who talks about the club's 25th anniversary celebrations.

but no track list

Jon3 showcases Ravi Coltrane .... not really listened to him ...views?

[Alyn_Shipton]

Calum, worth mentioning that JRR is now back at 5pm for the forseeable future (no bets on how long that is!)
I was at the Ravi gig in Cheltenham. The sum of the parts greater than the whole, I thought, but Drew Gress was truly excellent on bass.

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

I say Ravi play in a MCoy Tyner group several years ago and he was far more impressive than I had anticipated, especially as he was is so different from his father. Trumpeter Ralph Alessi is worth checking out too.

I agree with Ayln regarding Drew Gress who has been impressive when I have seen him perform with Tim Berne. He usually works in conunction with drummer Tom Rainey. If you wanted to check out his playing I would recommend clarinetist Andy Biskin's "Trio Tragico" which features Gress along with trumpeter Dave Ballou. The music is very similar to the feel of the trio Jimmy Guiffre led with Jim Hall albeit there is no harmony instrument. This album is a delight with some nice tunes contributing to an original line up of instruments:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trio-Tragico-Andy-Biskin/dp/B000IY06NO/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368880836&sr=1-1&keywords=trio+tragico

[Old Grumpy]

You Tube

Calum

Is it possible to load slightly smaller You Tube links? These jazz threads take ages to load on my steam computer out in the sticks, and freeze up my whole computer while they do!

OG

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

OG don't think so alas...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

must be me, but bands like Herman's or Buddy Rich's do not quite do it for me ... caught the end of Geoffrey last night and felt that listening to the first part was not going to happen ...

[Serial_Apologist]

must be me, but bands like Herman's or Buddy Rich's do not quite do it for me ... caught the end of Geoffrey last night and felt that listening to the first part was not going to happen ...

There was always the feeling, for me, that solos were often just slotted in, not given time to breathe or develop, frequently drowned out by having to compete like Wagnerian madonnas or be drowned out by the next bit of the arrangement bursting in. That didn't matter so much with eg Dizzy's late 40s band because part of the musical level of excitement were the rhythmic and harmonic clashes between and among soloists and arrangements, and since the 60s especially improvisers have been allowed more time and space to stretch out, or contribute collectively, and be part of, not grafted onto, structures.

[Ian Thumwood]

There was always the feeling, for me, that solos were often just slotted in, not given time to breathe or develop, frequently drowned out by having to compete like Wagnerian madonnas or be drowned out by the next bit of the arrangement bursting in. That didn't matter so much with eg Dizzy's late 40s band because part of the musical level of excitement were the rhythmic and harmonic clashes between and among soloists and arrangements, and since the 60s especially improvisers have been allowed more time and space to stretch out, or contribute collectively, and be part of, not grafted onto, structures.

Wow!! I like a good debate!!

Can't agree with that statement at all and begs the question how much of Woody Herman's music have you heard? For me, Herman's work in the 1940's is an essential component of the developments in jazz at the time and the fact that Gillespie himself was writing charts for this band in the early forties is indicative of the fact that Herman's bands of this time were extremely forward thinking and progressive. It's amazing just how quickly Herman's outfits grew musically from the Dixieland-ish "Band that played the blues" that started in the late thirties. I don't think that Herman's commitment to jazz can ever have been questioned and the works of his bands throughout the 1940's have stood the test of time far better than the likes of Kenton and the more commercial rubbish that the Gillespie band (as great as it was) ended up churning out. Some of Dizzy's later efforts on Victor were woeful albeit he requently returned to the big band format with formidible results. Musically, I can't see too much different between Herman's work in the 50's and Gillespie's of the same era. If you consider that Gil Evans' "Mile ahead" was radical for this time, Hermans certainly wasn't too far behind the curve or atleast now less progressive that the wonderful music Basie first put out until he signed up Neal Hefti.

The notion that Herman's music consisted of soloist' playing second string to the charts or to suggest that the soloists had limited space to stretch out is suggestive of massive unfamiliarity with this bandleader's music. Hoe much Woody Herman have you listened too ? Your comments make it seem like it is limited to "Woodchopper's Ball." I think that Herman probably allowed his soloists far more space than most of his contemporaries and the abundance of jazz in their book contrasted heavily with many of his contemporaries would lead me to score Herman's outfits far higher than many in that era. By the time records allowed musicians to stretch out in the 50's and 60's it's clear just how dominant the soloists had become in this agregation. Whilst the first two Herds are justly celebrated, Herman continued to lead great bands that were committed to jazz and you can practically guarantee hearing great jazz on any of his offerings. There is no lack of solo space on the recordings Herman produced.

I think it is also worth noting that Herman's band managed to retain an identity throughout it's life whilst at the same time remaining extremely "hip" to what was happening in the music. Small wonder that musicians like Nat Pearce would be performing Horace Silver tunes in the 50's and then Sal Nestico would be offering some aggressive tenor in the 1960's incarnations. By the 1970's, Herman was in to more rock - orientated music before leading a band in the 1980's that could just as easily be playing tunes by Herbie Hancock, Don Grolnick, Chick Corea or John Coltrane. (Check out some of his Concord recordings not featured in the Geoffrey Smith programme.)

I am also a fan of Shorty Roger's work and albums like "Cool n'crazy" demonstrate that at least something worthwhile came out of the Kenton band (notwithstanding the fact that Rogers also played with Herman) but Roger's finest work is limited to the 1950's and maybe early 60's. His music is very much of it's time. Ultimately he ended up in Hollywood as opposed to be wholly employed in a jazz capacity . Herman, to his credit, had a big band for around 50 years and it left him financially ruined. I would recommend that both Calum and SA read the relevant chapter about Herman in Gene Lees excellent "Meet me at Jim & Andy's." When you consider the roster of great musicians who made their name with Herman (a list which would include the likes of Serge Chaloff, Stan Getz, Bill Harris, John Hicks, Joe Lovano, Lyle Mays, etc) you begin to appreciate that his ability to spot jazz talent was akin to Art Blakey, Miles Davis and Betty Carter. Also worth noting that his bands were integrated - something you can't say about Rogers or Kenton to my knowledge.

As much as I like Goodman's music, Woody Herman had no peers amongst his white counterparts. Even those "musically" excellent bands like Artie Shaw's couldn't match it for jazz credentials or even shear punch. Curious too to read the enthusiasm for Claude Thornhill's band on a thread last week which I would gernally agree with but with the caveat that this outfit also recorded a lot of commercial junk and a high proprtion of vocal numbers which are dispensible. The Gil Evans' arrangements are only a small proportion of Thornhill's output and , at it's worse, the music it produced could be little better than Glenn Miller. It does sadden me a bit to read comments like "Herman doesn't really do it for me" and suggestions regarding limited opportunities for soloists which are totally misconceived and false. A jazz orchestra , by definition, will require a level of writing and the best jazz writers (whether we are talking about Don Redman, Fletcher Henderson, Eddie Sauter, Duke Ellington, Gil Evans, Buck Clayton, Thad Jones, John Hollenbeck or Darcy James Argue) manage to strike the right balance. I would put Herman in the category of getting this spot on whilst also having an ear to understanding that jazz was evolving and that he had to change to remain relevant. Compare and contrast with Artie Shaw who threw the towel in when he became disillusioned with the music business or Goodman who flirted with modernity before realising he had no taste for it. The only other bandleader as successful as Herman at moving with the times (as opposed to Ellington who was his own tradition) was count Basie.

[Ian Thumwood]

Part 2:-



I am less enthusiastic about Buddy Rich's bands but the notion that soloists seem to have a walk on part in his bands is again just plain stupid. Once more, he managed to find arrangers who could write in a style that was not anachronistic and who fully understood jazz. Whilst rooted in the solid 4/4 swing that pre-dated be-bop, it is also far to say that his style changed radically over the years since his first recordings with Bunny Berigan and Artie Shaw. For me, the issue with his bands is the lack of variety as they were always aggressive and bombastic coupled with the fact that I often feel that the music was written to massage his ego and place him at the centre of attention. This can make his records seem a bit tiring. That said, they played jazz and did not cop out. I've heard some Rich tracks where he has allowed the pianist to play unaccompanied and the music go into the realms of Chick Corea's more experimental piano playing. Also worth commenting that if Steve Marcus thought that Rich's bands left him little opportunity to express himself, why did he stay so long? All in all, I would describe Rich's big band as the orchestral equivalent of a group like Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers in that it is centred around the personality of the drummer. I think that there is a misperception of Rich's music that stems from his 70's and 80's output (I believe that Art Pepper was a regular soloist in the late 60's with this band) but there are earlier efforts in the 1950's where Rich pays homage to Count Basie that is similar to the tribute made a few years earlier by Shorty Rogers. There are also recordings that Rich made with a big band in the late 40's which would have been described as "progressive" at the time.

I would not call either Herman's or Rich's band "Wagnerian" nor was either littered with prima donna's. You could level this criticism at some of Kenton's output. For what it is worth, I cut my "jazz teeth" listening to bands like Herman's and Rich's. Nowadays I can take or leave the excesses of some of Buddy Rich's later bands but Herman's music is one of those rare examples like the original Basie band where the music seems to improve with age. For me, Herman is beyond reproach and the implication that soloists were slotted in with no time to breathe is a criticism more appropriately levelled at someone like Glenn Miller or Tommy Dorsey.

In summary, I feel that Woody Herman was a catalyst for some of the most exciting and modern big band writing of the 1940's. His bands were extremely well rehearsed (I once heard Don Rendall explain just hiow demanding Herman was when he played in his English outfit) and , from a point of view of performance, made a mockery of most of his contempories. I think the only criticism of Herman's works is that the 1930's band is not too great and played a kind of sub-Bob Crosby. Other than this, he was a major figure in the modernism of the 1940's and savvy enough to commission Igor Stravinsky. The fact that he still remained relevant until his death in the 1980's, by which time many of his contemporaries such as Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, charlie Spivak, etc had resorted to performing their material from 40-50's years previously, was remarkable. In my opinion, we can applaud the originality of Claude Thornhill's band whilst not losing sight of the fact that it was a dance band and appreciate Shorty Roger's sensational work in the 1950's even though it did owe a lot to Basie's 1930's band but i think neither of these two combined made as lasting and as important an impact to jazz as Woody Herman.

I think it is possible to take a puritanical view that small group jazz may, on the face of it, offer soloists a greater freedom but it is also the case the great writing has the ability to lift a performance from the realms of the ordinary. Bandleader's like Woody Herman got the balance spot on and, in his case , this was achieved over as period of fifty years of which for ten of these he was at the vanguard of modernity. It is great that there are all sorts of opinions on this messageboard and that everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I think the two posts about Herman are so wide of the mark they need to be addressed whether or not you are a fan of this kind of jazz.

[Ian Thumwood]

Try this :-

The level of musicianship on this recording is pretty staggering.

[Quarky]

must be me, but bands like Herman's or Buddy Rich's do not quite do it for me ... caught the end of Geoffrey last night and felt that listening to the first part was not going to happen ...

The first part was much better, more real jazz, less with an eye on record sales.

But judging by the quality of Ian's clips, the fault was with Geoffrey, not Woody - the second half of the programme after Early Autumn included some pretty ropey stuff.

[Ian Thumwood]

More "slotted in" solos:-

[Ian Thumwood]

Herman in the 1960's:-

[Ian Thumwood]

[Quarky]

More please!