Miles Davis' first quintet ~ conservative or radical?

[Beef Oven]

I really like that album and if you are taken with that kind of abstraction ckout Bobby Hutcherson's early sides on Bluenote, "Dialogue" esp. Andrew Hill is another worthy direction from around the same period and label.

BN.

Thanks BN. I have some Andrew Hill already, so I'll check out Bobby Hutcherson

EDIT: I have just ordered 'Dialogue' on CD, arrives tomorrow.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

seconded on the Andrew Hill Blue Notes ...

Sam Rivers played in the Miles Davis tour of Japan

as did Hancock, Carter and Tony Williams ... an indispensable album ... my fav track is Valentine ...

a step on the path to the next great quintet

[Quarky]

Paul Chambers is one of my favourite bassists, but his acro solos sound (often) like he's trying to saw through the bass. He's by no means alone in this, maybe because it is not the first technique bassists learn. Other things I dislike in the lower depths, Sam Jones and Oscar Pettiford's cello playing...simillar reasons, although Ron Carter was sort of OK with Dolphy.

Scott Lafaro was a good acro bass player...ckout "Ornette" on Atlantic, a MUCH neglected album by the plastic alto bluesician.

BN.

Thanks for reminder, BN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHF8U0fj2Nc

This was the disc that converted me to arco-bass, back in my teens, many years ago. Trying to find it the other day, but looking for Charlie Haden.
And I was also playing Green Dolphin Street, which Calum mentioned above.
It seems the more free Jazz became the more scope for arco-bass. Doesn't really work with a tight rhythm section. Even PC's solos seem a little out of place at times.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Agree with that, I think freer jazz really opened things up for that kind of "colour" playing, but forget not Mingus? Meditations?..... but no-ones mentioned Slam Stewart, a man so happy in his woodwork shop, he just hummed along all day!

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

Agree with that but nones mentioned Slam Stewart, a man so happy in his woodwork, he just hummed along!

BN.

Coleridge Goode too!

[burning dog]

Slam Stewart was one of my earliest heroes, before I even knew what kind of music this was.

[clive heath]

Having now completed my processing of "Steamin' " and "Workin' ", which are now both on the site for those unfamiliar with these two albums (see "Sax No End" thread for link) I can't say I see a "Conservative or Radical" distinction is valid. Mostly because in various ways these tracks have a bit of both. Red Garland and Paul Chambers inhabit conservatism in that the rhythm section is fairly mainstream (although they get unintentionally modern in "Surrey with the Fringe on Top"; too many clashes betweeen bass notes and piano left-hand for my taste in the theme altho' things improve in the solos). Philly Joe Jones is interesting in that he experiments with using the "Splash" cymbal in a sympathetic way rather than as a climax-enhancer and he does get perhaps a little too much solo space, nevertheless his contribution is marvellous. In Jazz at the Phil' concerts when the rest of the band would leave the stage for a drum solo you knew you were in for a biggie!! Miles is magnificent, of course, and in some phrases he seems to prefigure "Summertime" from "Porgy and Bess". I wonder a bit about analysing John Coltrane on these LPs by what he did later, surely we should be looking at what he did before. Here, he seems to be trying to phrase in an unconventional way according to the pravailing mode. The small groups that dominated the Downbeat Reader's Polls for most of the middle 50s were the MJQ and the Dave Brubeck Quartet so JC was not aiming to ease his way in to popular acceptance!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Having now completed my processing of "Steamin' " and "Workin' ", which are now both on the site for those unfamiliar with these two albums (see "Sax No End" thread for link) I can't say I see a "Conservative or Radical" distinction is valid. Mostly because in various ways these tracks have a bit of both. Red Garland and Paul Chambers inhabit conservatism in that the rhythm section is fairly mainstream (although they get unintentionally modern in "Surrey with the Fringe on Top"; too many clashes betweeen bass notes and piano left-hand for my taste in the theme altho' things improve in the solos). Philly Joe Jones is interesting in that he experiments with using the "Splash" cymbal in a sympathetic way rather than as a climax-enhancer and he does get perhaps a little too much solo space, nevertheless his contribution is marvellous. In Jazz at the Phil' concerts when the rest of the band would leave the stage for a drum solo you knew you were in for a biggie!! Miles is magnificent, of course, and in some phrases he seems to prefigure "Summertime" from "Porgy and Bess". I wonder a bit about analysing John Coltrane on these LPs by what he did later, surely we should be looking at what he did before. Here, he seems to be trying to phrase in an unconventional way according to the pravailing mode. The small groups that dominated the Downbeat Reader's Polls for most of the middle 50s were the MJQ and the Dave Brubeck Quartet so JC was not aiming to ease his way in to popular acceptance!

thanks for putting it where we can find it Clive!

[Ian Thumwood]

Clive

To my ears, the split between conservative / radical lies between the horns and the rhthm section. I agree with what you say about Coltrane (although I much prefer his 1960's output and am not a huge fan of his earlier phase) and you can hear Miles playing around with the harmony in his solos in a way that echoes his later work. That said, Garland seems very much a player of the previous decade and I don't think there is any way you could make a case for him these days as a progressive figure in the jazz of the time. The bass and drums are timeless in my estimation. I would also have to say that the repertoire of standards was something that got dropped later in the decade when Miles' bands standarded to become bery adventurous - so much so that they still sound very edgy nearly 50 years later!

I'm not sure I agree about the popular acceptance bit. In their time, Miles was one of the biggest figures in jazz and signed to CBS about the stint with Prestige. CBS would have had a wider appeal that the more homespun prestige label and I seem to recall from his autobiography comments about how well his albums actually sold. They only started to slump sales-wise with the second quintet which didn't sell so well as these discs never appealed to a non-jazz audience the way the earlier efforts did.

Cheers

Ian

[Ian Thumwood]

I've been playing the " ' Round about midnight" double CD recommended by Jazzrook over the last week and would have to say that I'm staggered as to why this record doesn't enjoy the kind of recongition it deserves. The verve of this band is squite staggering and the album is worth the money alone simply for the opening 6 tracks which are shear perfection. There are a number of rejected tracks that we not included in the initial LP release which are also pretty good albeit I feel that would have altered the mood of the record in it's original form. The CD also comes with a live recording of the quintet which is also impressive.

I was really intrigued by the previously unreleased material insofar that the band played far more "be-bop" numbers than I would have expected. Previously I had always considered Miles as a musician who looked ahead to future developments in jazz and therefore this comes as something of a surprise. That said, I really don't think there were many bands of that era who played with quite the finesse of this quintet and I would have to say that this record features some of the best early-Coltrane I've heard. He seems far more consistent than on the Prestige records and perhaps just that little bit more daring. All told, I have been very taken by this recommendation.

Cheers

Ian

[Serial_Apologist]

I was really intrigued by the previously unreleased material insofar that the band played far more "be-bop" numbers than I would have expected. Previously I had always considered Miles as a musician who looked ahead to future developments in jazz and therefore this comes as something of a surprise.

Dizzy's and John Lewis's 1947 "Two-bass Hit" was recorded by the Quintet which followed as late as 1958, on the "Milestones" album - as was Monk's "Straight No Chaser", though perhaps one may dare exclude the latter from the "bebop" category?