Miles Davis' first quintet ~ conservative or radical?

[Quarky]

Yes Ian, great music, and a great post, thank you.

But uncomfortable about conservative / radical as applied to Jazz. Will expand my post later - but are there any conservative free jazzers? Clowes?
Satchmo- radical?
Just good jazz, bad jazz?
Musicians with something to say, and some who are content to trot out cliches?

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

After the BotC sessions, the recordings I've heard are good but not as great as the music made by the first quintet. As for his 1980's work, it's probably dated more than anything else he recorded and whilst the likes of John Scofield have argued that some of the music was a precursor for contemporary groups like MM&W, I've also seen a lot of recent criticism that Miles' was really behind the curve by this point and so keen to be seen as someone who was hip with a younger audience, he didn't see where jazz was actually going. Nothing Miles made in this decade with the exception of "Aura" and perhaps "Decoy" matches his earlier work between 56-early seventies. Miles still had his sound in the 80's but the excitement came from other musicians like Kenny Garrett or John Scofield. Even Branford Marsalis said the bands just played vamps. His music from this era is nowhere as near as innovative as someone like Dave Douglas' output.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I always thought it a shame that Miles didnt work more with Jackie Mclean, particular early 60s Jackie. J hired Tony Williams before anyone else, and indeed Dejohnette. He also recorded with Herbie before Miles. The was a hell of lot of Miles Mclean mutual respect, as you can pick up in the autobiog.

Although on reflection Jackie's lack of a cabaret card would have prevented it.

BN.

Agree re. the Bluenotes Calum, some very fine stuff there esp with Jimmy Heath.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

BTW Ian, if you want Round Midnight and Milestones, the compete Miles/Coltrane quintet/sextet album (Sony) box set was going pretty cheaply before Xmas. And you get the album out-takes and the live Plaza and 58 Newport dates. Excellent value, cool box and a nice set of photos.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i have a disagreement with Ian's starting point as i understand it ... he is assessing from a technical platform much of the time ... genius sure has off days but can still burn your soul ... there are many more talented trumpeters than Miles Davis, [Dizzy Gillespie for one] but when he played he had the light and precision of Vermeer, the line of Modigliani, you soar and dive through the fundaments with his passion ... it his poetry not his trumpet for me ...

that poetic light is not always strong but it is there .... Jackie Mac was also a poet of his horn .... depends when El Senor, at the wrong time they would get lost in a back room sharing a fix eh ? ... but the thought of them playing together is a good one ...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Calum, if you listen to Jackie's Vertigo Bnote album from 63, with Tony barely 17 and his first recording, Herbie on the cusp of Milles, and imagine Miles in for Donald Byrd, you get the idea. Not saying it would have ever equalled the 2nd Qrt but it would have been interesting.

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

it his poetry not his trumpet for me ...

Talking about stories and misunderstandings, (!), I well remember a conversation with Harry Beckett, lovely guy, hugely missed, in which I told him that much as I loved his playing, it was above all the sound he obtained that got to me, it not being a typical trumpet sound. "Well, thank you very much", he replied with heavy irony after a pause of surprise - smiling, fortunately!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

wilco El Senor... trust the ducks is cool &c

you do have a point

struth Jackie is going for it!

[Serial_Apologist]

Boy, you guys are quick today!

[Jazzrook]

S-A

The lack of roots to which I refer are in reference to A and B voicings. I.e. 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th with the bass picking up the root as you suggest. I don't think open 7th sound adveturous unless you are running a sequence of altered harmonies. The "shell" chords of 3rds and 7ths are also mentioned in the Mehegan book and attributed to Powell whereas Bill Evans is credited with largely using rootless voicings. What I've read about Garland suggests he was doing this before Evans. Looking at the analytically, Garland does seem far more conservative as I initially suggested and the Ian Carr quote is spot on in my opinion. The piano player was an excellent contrast to Coltranes hard-nosed tenor approach of that era.

"I'm tempted to snap up "Round midnight."

Ian ~ I'd recommend the Miles Davis 2-CD set ''Round About Midnight'(COLUMBIA/LEGACY COL 519957 2) which features the first studio sessions that his quintet recorded for COLUMBIA during 1955 & 1956.
There's also a beautiful version of ''Round Midnight' with Miles and Thelonious Monk in a stunning duet at the 1955 Newport J.F. plus a little-known Gene Norman concert with Miles Quintet at the Pasadena Civic Auditorium in 1956.
A strangely overlooked Miles double album.

Jazzrook

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Second that emotion...specially when Gene Norman says, "Johnny Coltrane on saxophone"!

BN.

[elmo]

Re the was the first quintet conservative or not....

My take on it is that at the time it certainly was something diifferent, the classic Hard bop bands Jazz Messengers, Horace Silver, Max/Brownie all had distinctive approaches to the music. Each band building on the advances Bop brought about in the forties; Miles band brought a new kind of relaxed swing, rhythmically exciting yet cool at the same time. Listen to "If they asked me I could write a book" Miles seems to have all the time in the world during his solo yet the tempo is pretty fast but Red, Paul and PhillyJoe create such magnifcent driving swing that it seems like that groove could go on forever. I think Paul Chambers contribution to the success of this band is badly underrated his bass playing behind Miles carries the whole thing.
I don't see the music as dated - neo cons copying the music is dated but the original whether its Armstrong, Miro, James Joyce, Ornette, Ellington, Dolphy, Steinbeck is still the real deal.
elmo

[Ian Thumwood]

Elmo

I would agree that this band offered something different to Hard Bop and the relaxed feel of the band's playing is a marked contrast to alot of the jazz of this time and especially the frenetic bop of the late 40's. One thing that I would have to say is that the fact that this was a regular working band as opposed to something cooked up in the studio really sets this band apart from many other recordings of the time. I liked the Blue Note tracks Calum posted yet this first "Great" Quintet was clearly more of a band and the musician's more understanding and sympathetic to each other. There is a cohesiveness about this group which I would suggest is comparable to Basie's big band of the same era.

Cheers

Ian

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

The terms of the deal between Avakian and Weinstock allowed Davis to record for Columbia but not release any of the material until Davis fulfilled his remaining duty to Prestige.[8] Davis took the quintet into the studio for three marathon dates over a one-year period, meeting his contractual obligations efficiently.[9] Prestige released the first album Miles in 1956, with the remaining results of the sessions appearing on albums with homophonic titles released from 1956 up to 1961.
wickipedia

a band yep, but the nature of the recording dates has something to do with the groove i suspect

could not agree more about the role of Chambers [except his bowed solos] but i think the dream team is Wynton Kelly, Jimmy Cobb and Chambers ... on that soundtrack album Kind of Blue

[Serial_Apologist]

I must be the only one on this thread who likes Paul Chambers' arco solos!

Listen to him - or, as the Bristolians say, "'Ark at ee"