Miles Davis' first quintet ~ conservative or radical?

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4361

    Miles Davis' first quintet ~ conservative or radical?

    Although I've heard alot of the material by this group before, I've spent alot of this time this week listening to the recordings of Miles' quintet and have been staggered by the craftsmanship of this ensemble. What struck me was that is seems to be quite straight-forward in many respects yet there is a sense of drama which I think alot of jazz of this era really misses. There are moments where you can see Miles trying to be adventurous with themes like "Ahmed's Blues" or the re-working of "Salt peanuts" which look forward to the next decade. Without doubt, it is the leader who is looking towards the future and Miles' comment about Coltrane's later work being boring seems misjudged as I don't feel that there is anything on the records I've heard to suggest in 1956 that Coltrane would be quite the titanic force that he became. Yes, the approach is muscular and knotty but I don't feel he joins the dots up between his phrases with anywhere near the ability of what he could achieve even on a record like the live recording at Carnegie Hall with Monk. Coltrane was at a very early stage in his development when he played with Miles. For me, the front line is not the pairing of equals as was the case with Wayne Shorter. I'm still ploughing my way through the recordings and will post any later observations but wanted to sound out if anyone else shared my views.

    For me, there are two soloists who really stand out. The first of these is the leader who was starting to find his identity and had the ability to play ballads which avoided sentimentality yet was full of poetry in his expression. The other soloist who impresses is Red Garland. I think you could be ultra-critical and pick up things like his left hand accentuating the same beat during his solos on a piece like "four" but what he is doing with his improvised line is so poised that I find it difficult to think of many other modern jazz pianists of this era who are so compelling. Despite this, I think he owes a lot of earlier players like Nat "king Cole and despite the famous quote about him being employed because he sounded like the under-rated Ahmad Jamal, he seems very mainstream these days. If you heard hims perform now, he has the kind of style you would say would fit perfectly with a player like Scot Hamilton. I love Garland's playing yet struggle to think of Miles Davis ever employing a more "conservative" pianist. The lock-hand choruses almost recall people like Milt Buckner but luckily this device is used sparingly and is therefore interesting. Like a lot of harmonically aware pianists of the time, Garland could easily have strayed in to a more cocktail approach and thankfully his always swinging improvised lines prevented this from happening.


    The other point is that I was surprised by Coltrane as his playing is exceptionally hard in it's tone, I much prefer his later work and would have to say that I don't find his solos as compelling at either Davis or Garland. As far as the other two musicians are concerned, I like Paul Chamber's playing and the manner in which he works as a team with Garland and Jones. Tha said, there are more drum solos that I recalled and they quickly lose their appeal. On one of the takes of " The Theme" Jones doesn't quite make it at the point at which his solo meets the head. He is much more interesting as a player for the band.

    The final issue was the material. I was shocked at just how many standards this group played and also as Miles' enthusiasm for the wiritng of Dave Brubeck. With his enthusiasm for Jamal, Garland and perhaps Brubeck it is interesting to learn something about his taste in pianists in the mid 50's. i.e. He was pretty conservative.

    All told, I think this was a great band but very much a sound board for Miles' future development. You can see how his choice of notes started to changed from the more obvious be-bop material. I'm still more impressed by the classic , (seocnd quintet the greatest small group in jazz ever) yet this was a fabulous band even if 60 years later the music does not necessarily come across as being "Modern jazz." Anyone familiar with the kind of jazz put out on a label like Concord would be able to devour this music. In summary, this is great music albeit not quite as "modern" as I recalled it to be. Hugely enjoyable, none the same!!
  • aka Calum Da Jazbo
    Late member
    • Nov 2010
    • 9173

    #2
    ... it was a great band Ian ... i have always loved the Relaxin album and this track in particular


    According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

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    • Jazzrook
      Full Member
      • Mar 2011
      • 3167

      #3
      Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4353

        #4
        The older I get, awwww no!, the more I appreciate Red Garland's contribution to the balance of the band. Ian Carr said he provided a "creaming out from the tension", I think much more. Listen to him comp and suggest behind Trane on Round Midnight, cocktail it ain't.

        BN.

        And if its the first (ish) Quintet, Wynton Kelly provided a whole new thing...hitting Miles note for note, idea for idea at the Blackhawk. Glorious, absolutely stunning playing.

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        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 38184

          #5
          That idea of maintaining a sense of balance or grounding somewhere in the mix, right through Miles's music, could well be ascribed to Red Garland, with harmony becoming evermore oblique, elaboration around a basic beat evermore elaborate, though Philly's rimshot regularity was enacted in tandem. For me the rhythmic simplification to regular repetitions Miles required of Tony W in "Silent Way" was to be regretted - but that's just me!

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          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4361

            #6
            S-A / Bluesnik

            I must admit that I like Wynton Kelly's playing too however the point I was trying to raise was that I don't really feel this quintet was quite as adventurous as credited on the Prestige albums and you could argue just how much it was at the vanguard of the jazz of the time. What I think is to this group's credit is that it was a "band" and the way it addressed things like dynamics gave the music they played a considerable edge over what other bands of this era played. There is a real sense of drama in this records (Jazzrook's link to "'Round midnight" is a prime example, although I understand that the score for this was actually written by Gil Evans.)

            Miles' career is illuminating in that , setting aside odd masterpieces like "The birth of the cool" and "Aura", all his best work seems to have been condensed within a relatively short period of about 15 years between 1956 and the early 1970's. (About half the duration of the lifespan of Keith Jarrett's trio, for example.) Usually I have been put off the Prestige recordings as I have always felt that Bob Weinstock seemed to rush out recordings littered with out of tune pianos and, as was the case with Monk, often spliced together from numerous takes. The consistency of "Relaxin'", etc, etc is amazing for the label and easily represents the zenith of Prestige's catalogue.

            I would have to say that I was not previously aware of how many other sessions Garland played on nor records he made under his own name. It was strnage that he left music in the 1960's albeit I imagine that jazz was developing so fast in this decade his style would have sounded dated, He is supposed to have changed his approach when he later returned to jazz. By dispensing with the roots of chords, I suppose Garland is almost a model of the kind of jazz piano outlined by the conclusion of the John Mehegan theory books that came out in the 60's, It always struck me as odd that this book never made my piano playing sound modern and the whole notion of substitions wasn't really considered by Mehegan.

            I don't think everything they did was an unqualified success. Garland seems more "outside" than on many of the other Prestige tracks on Monk's "Well you needn't" (probably my least favourite tune by this composer) and the attempt to sound modern resulted in a pretty baffling solo. The performance is a bit frenetic and the usual sense of relaxation is totally missing - not helped by Monk's melody line. Garland's solo isn't helped by the use of repeated quotes from other tunes. The horns also don't come in on time and I don't think CBS would have let that pass un-edited but I suppose they would have had a much bigger budget.

            Of the recordings Miles made with Garland, it would be interesting to see which is considered the best. I don't have either "Milestones" or "Round midnight" is my collection,. I've always been put off the former as I'm not to keen on the version of "Billy Boy" as it isn't a particularly great tune to begin with. For me, it is the ballad playing by this group where they truly excel.

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            • Serial_Apologist
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 38184

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post


              I don't think everything they did was an unqualified success. Garland seems more "outside" than on many of the other Prestige tracks on Monk's "Well you needn't" (probably my least favourite tune by this composer) and the attempt to sound modern resulted in a pretty baffling solo. The performance is a bit frenetic and the usual sense of relaxation is totally missing - not helped by Monk's melody line. Garland's solo isn't helped by the use of repeated quotes from other tunes. The horns also don't come in on time and I don't think CBS would have let that pass un-edited but I suppose they would have had a much bigger budget.
              I hadn't heard it before , luckily it's here (hopefully):



              It seems Red G is attempting a "Line-Up" Tristano-type monodic solo here, and the comparison doesn't come off because Red can't produce the seamless flow that Tristano could. (Some don't like that aspect of Tristano, mind - "it doesn't breathe" etc etc!). I always liked Chambers' bowed solos more than his plucked, and here he does a good one, for all the recording sounds buzzy.

              Doesn't Red sound more "himself" in the Davis group than on other recordings? I tend to hear a typical-of-its-time post/sub Powell player under other's leadership, ie open LH sevenths etc rather than triads. Not sure what you mean when you refer to abanding the roots, Ian? Surely the essence of jazz piano en groupe post Powell/Monk is to leave root pitches to the double bass in any case? Perhaps you mean something else.

              Apologies btw for my perfunctory earlier post - I've been a bit preoccupied with the forum this afternoon.

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              • Ian Thumwood
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 4361

                #8
                S-A

                The lack of roots to which I refer are in reference to A and B voicings. I.e. 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th with the bass picking up the root as you suggest. I don't think open 7th sound adveturous unless you are running a sequence of altered harmonies. The "shell" chords of 3rds and 7ths are also mentioned in the Mehegan book and attributed to Powell whereas Bill Evans is credited with largely using rootless voicings. What I've read about Garland suggests he was doing this before Evans. Looking at the analytically, Garland does seem far more conservative as I initially suggested and the Ian Carr quote is spot on in my opinion. The piano player was an excellent contrast to Coltranes hard-nosed tenor approach of that era.

                I'm tempted to snap up "Round midnight."

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                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 38184

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                  S-A

                  The piano player was an excellent contrast to Coltranes hard-nosed tenor approach of that era.
                  - especially on "Straight No Chaser" from "Milestones" - which iimss you really ought to have as one of those lynchpins of any collection, Ian! In fact Red picks up on a few aspects of 'Trane's complexity in his preceding tenor solo and very subtly filters them in his own way and temperament into his own nudging solo. (Btw, another matter not related to the context of this discussion, but I never did "get" the conclusion of Red's solo here by his quoting an early solo Miles had made with Bird back in '47 in its entirety - it doesn't fit with the foregoing in any way. I guess it was some kind of private joke between the two).

                  PS thanks for the clarification re chord roots

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                  • Ian Thumwood
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 4361

                    #10
                    S-A
                    I don't think it was a joke as the stuff I've read about Garland suggests that the pianist was taunting Davis following a dispute between the pair. It is a clever piece of playing and quite funny as a pastiche. I don't know which original Parker recording this solo came from. Miles must have been totally pissed by that !

                    Oddily enough, I'm not too fussed by Chamber's bowing. His intonation soumds pretty poor and his sound as a rustiness which doesn't make it a particularly great experience from my point of view!

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                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 38184

                      #11
                      Ah - I see that quote was from the 1947 "Milestones" - not the title track but a quite different tune, a 12-bar blues, one of Bird's, presumably.

                      Incidentally - should anybody else following this thread happen ever to be in my vicinity - I possess an entire tape of a BBC programme presented by Ian Carr in the immediate wake of Miles's death, in which he played tracks interspersed with there-and-then transatlantic phone conversations with Dave Holland, and iirc Bill Evans (the saxophonist), John Scofield and Herbie. Ian later told me he was still in grief, and terrified having been asked to do it at point-blank notice. Drop in for a cuppa char.

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                      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4353

                        #12
                        It was Nows the Time. Actually the interesting piano to me on that album is Miles own after he fired Red. Stark and oblique, it really sets things up.

                        BN.

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                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 38184

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
                          It was Nows the Time. Actually the interesting piano to me on that album is Miles own after he fired Red. Stark and oblique, it really sets things up.

                          BN.
                          You're right of course - thanks Bluesie!

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                          • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 4353

                            #14
                            Garland worked with Bird for a while in a quartet with Roy Haynes. Haynes said it was a very fine group, lots of rapport..."but of course they had a great drummer!"

                            BN.

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                            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 9173

                              #15
                              "block chords Red, block chords" ... maybe he was just leaving space for Paul to play and be heard in ..... i am unsure that the band would have discussed this in the terms of discussion here ... issues of voicing and sound would be central for Miles eh? and rehearsals would have focussed upon sound, voicing and space to play rather than harmonic devices even if these were being manipulated?

                              and just why did Mr Haynes not feature in any of his groups?

                              what is extraordinary is that the majority of the prestige recordings were knocked off in a short time so Miles could move to Columbia ....

                              i can not agree with you about Miles's output Ian ... there is nothjing at all strange in variable quality output from genius; genius makes more mistakes than the average as part of producing more masterpieces ... as they say about strikers if they aren't missing they are not scoring ....

                              and Birth Of The Cool is a masterpiece from the earlier years, but the the 2 Volume Blue Notes are pretty amazing as well

                              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

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