Is there a new mainstream in jazz?

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4242

    Is there a new mainstream in jazz?

    I had a really interesting conversation with my friends Tom and Mary last night on the subject of whether music was becoming more homogeneous and less interesting with the passage of time. Initially the discussion was prompted by comments about Elton John's corny piano playing but it quickly developed into how the market for pop music was making artists less interesting so that (to quote the examples given) songwriters such as Kate Bush or Joni Mitchell would struggle to make an impression in 2011 as they would be perceived as too idiosyncratic. I was fascinated to learn that the trend was very much encouraged by Neil Sedaka who apparently managed to ascertain the ingredients of what makes a "hit pop song" and, having hit on the formula, continued to produce a string of records which all shared similar qualities regarding key, tempo, form, etc and ultimately earned him alot of commercial success.

    The discussion then lead on to jazz and the music of Charlie Parker and how the obvious quality of his soloing abilities can be set against the lack of variety of the style of music made by his various groups. A salient point was made that listening to say, the 4-CD Proper Box set of his work could be a tiring process. Furthermore , other than sessions with strings, Latin musicians and the odd big band session, there is as little variety in Parker's recorded output as is the case with pop music. I have to agree with the observation that it simply would not be acceptable to make records in the almost off-hand fashion of Parker these days as both producers and listeners would demand something more considered. One of my friends, who essentially listens to little jazz from before 1960, pointed out that he admires the obvious brilliance of Parker from a historical point of view but finds the palette too limited , especially from the advantage of nearly 70 years. This is the comment from someone who I respect and who listens to a wide range of contemporary jazz styles even though he is older than myself. The culmination of this debate was how jazz musicians who might now be considered "mainstream" had tackled the issue of making their music original and interesting by pitching their music in some way that made it sound "contemporary" even if the vocabulary they employed might not be as "progressive" as other musicians considered to be "cutting edge."

    This got me thinking about a series of records I have bought over the last 6 months where musicians have worked in an idiom that is decidedly not at the cutting edge of the music nor even post-Coltrane but who have addressed playing the musical styles of an earlier era yet managed to create something wholly creative and interesting to listen to. Given that a front-line led blowing session is not really of much interest to the more sophisticated tastes of today's jazz audience, I love the way that musicians as diverse as Ben Allison, Gerald Clayton, Russell Malone and (latest discovery) Anat Cohen are very much "conservatives" but that they imbibe a freshness in their music which makes it wholly ot their era. So, for example, Clayton's trio make take it's nod from many a pianist from the 1950's but the drummer is not afraid to employ more contemporary beats. Furthermore, as is typical of today's artists, most musicians also seem to progress from project to project with different bands or ideas.

    When I first got into jazz, Mainstream always seemed ambiguous as there were those musicians I particularly enjoyed such as Buck Clayton and those I disliked such as Ruby Braff even though the overall idiom roughly covered the style of jazz from the Swing Era to Fifties Modern / West Coast. I suppose that the original notion of Mainstream seemed to be peppered with some of the cream of the soloists who were often enbedded within the jazz orchestras of the 30's / 40's with a sprinkling of younger musicians to spice things up. I think this continued up until the 70's / 80's with labels like Concord that continued the notion with a fair number of "young fogies" like Scott Hamilton. However, I think this changed by the late 90's so that musicians like Harry Allen ,who is not dissimilar to Hamilton in many ways, started to work with more contemporary rhythm sections. The improvement is very noticeable, in my opinion. You could also add Eric Alexander to this list. You are also finding musicians like Greg Cohen or Randy Sandke who are quite happy to work in all idioms or, as is the case with the latter, do some pretty wierd micro-tonal music with a Mainstream / Modern band.

    To my ears, I think these musicians are fascinating. I love to hear musicians who are new to me and although the more adventurous players are extremely exciting at this point in time, it is also true that the mainstream has definately received a shot in the arm over the last decade. I feel that there is a sense of adventure and originality in this music that is very welcome and perhaps indicative that elements of all jazz playing (including free improvisation in the case of a live Malone CD I have) can now be swallowed by an audience who had hitherto been sceptical of the yoinger generation of fans. Fascinating to read the reviews of Cohen's CD's on the American Amerzon site as the more favourable remarks obviously seem to come from fans who probably cut their jazz teeth 50-60 years ago.
  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37851

    #2
    As someone politically suspicious of Postmodernism especially if manfesting in the sphere of jazz I seem to be at odds with your liking for the kinds of music you describe, Ian.

    Not, honestly, having heard any of the bands you've cited, I may well be talking through my fundament here; but the difference between the mainstream artists of the 1950s/60s (eg Ben Webster backed by the Oscar Peterson Trio) and what you would seem to be describing, is that in the former case we have generational differences of aesthetics, outlook and stylistic evolution acting on the outcome, whereas in the latter musicians seem to be cherry picking different stylistic eras in search of a way forward. Or is that unfair?

    My criticism would be that the latter approach is discongruent with the way jazz evolves - or at any rate has historically evolved - as an organic, interactive form - interactive between musicians co-determining the course of events, on the one hand, and between improvisation and the forms being improvised upon, on the other. One might further bracket all that together, and consider it in relation to the wider context of music, the arts, politics, cultural changes, and funding, specifically and in general - all of which jazz expresses at its best when it is at its least selfconscious... if that makes any sense.

    S-A

    Comment

    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37851

      #3
      Ian

      In "replying" to your OP it now occurs to me that I have managed to avoid answering your headline question - is there a new mainstream in jazz?

      During the 50 or so years I've been listening to the music it would seem that the original term "Mainstream" applied by Stanley Dance in the late '50s to the type of jazz resulting from Swing musicians being backed by post-Swing rhythm sections has imperceptibly morphed into the general category of "contemporary mainstream", which as I understand it makes up the bulk of jazz I would class as effectively updated hard bop, i.e. the gradually evolving form taking on board aspects of eg free form and jazz-rock fusion without essentially itself breaking any moulds. I.e. arguably the vast bulk of what passes for contemporary jazz today - theme/string of solos/theme ... so I'm not citing any examples.

      S-A

      Comment

      • Ian Thumwood
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4242

        #4
        SA

        I think you should listen to some of these players. Whilst I agree with some of your sentiments, I think that the practical reality of the music is very different. This music is very relevant.

        For me, the more adventurous kind of jazz played today covers a very wide range of bases from Pat Metheny to the likes of William Parker. At the same time, there is definately a generation of players emerging who have no desire to produce music that is challenging or breaking any boundaries whilst at the same time reluctant to slavishly copy the past masters. In the discussion last night, the names of both Wynton Marsalis and Simon Spillet cropped up as examples of players who seemed satisfied to borrow heavily from an earlier generation of soloists or even writers as is the case with WM. Someone like Spillet is very much in your head-solo- head mould but I would argue that the examples I have cited are aware of the heritage (all of it too) but seem to be producing a kind of jazz that is not "way out" but equally very much of our times. Certainly, the musicians I have named are also strong writers and the old Be-bop theme-solo-theme approach has been ditched in exchange for arrangements that are more interesting for the ear. However, I think the ability to write "good jazz" has been a feature of all aspects of the music at least since the 1960's, not just in this "mainstream." In the past, the Mainstream movement seemed to rely heavily of standards, old jazz war horses (especially from the Basie school of things) or jammed on heads cooked up on the changes to "I got rhythm" or the blues. These days the nest is cast considerably wider and, just to take the example of Anat Cohen, could include Fats Waller, Ernesto Lecuona, Johhny Griffin, Sam Cooke, John Coltrane or even Sun Ra without any of it sounding incongruous. This would never have happened with the early generation of more Mainstream players. Allison has been heavily involved with resurrecting Herbie Nichol's music and is a prolific composer himself. Most of Clayton's music is original too.

        My point was that both musicians and audiences have become sophisticated with the result that the more "conversative" elements in jazz are far more adventurous than they have ever been - perhaps more than at any time in the history of jazz. I think that there are "conservative" forces in jazz at the moment that offer something as equally potent as more adventurous players like Ijay Iyer , Jason Moran or any of the stuff coming out of Chicargo in 2011 just to take three examples. I don't think that any of these players are cherry picking. I agree with your notion that jazz should develop but why should this be limited to the more adventurous areas of the music? The Anat Cohen disc I have on at the moment includes a variety of musicians from all backgrounds including Antonio Sanchez, Ted Nash, Billy Drewes, Avishai Cohen (her brother) and Erik Friedlander whereas the excellent "Notes from the Village" has Jason Lindner playing the piano. I am sure that you would concur that these musicians reflect a variety of "schools" but the disc "Noir" is pretty easy on the ears whilst , at the same time, being pretty much beyond the concept many of the musicians of Charlie Parker's generation. In this aspect, the music has definately improved even if individuals of the stature of Parker may be something in the past. Jazz is just too diverse these days. The music definately does not sound like the Swing Era / Modern approach you have described but I would hazard a guess that it would appeal to many jazz fans brought up on the kind of music that spans from Benny Goodman through to the likes of Jimmy Guiffre or Gerry Mulligan. Incidently, Cohen was just voted "Jazz clarinetist of the year" yet again by Downbeat magazine. The publicity regarding her playing in the States is pretty much on over-drive at the moment.

        It is interesting to compare this with pop music which seems to be going around in ever decreasing circles as it tries to create new ideas whereas some of these younger jazz musicians have definately invigorated the mainstream of the music by taking on more contemporary styles. In my opinion, the likes of Ben Allison, Anat Cohen, Ted Nash, Russell Malone, Gerald Clayton, Bill Charlap (to a lesser degree) etc are offering a less strident approach to contemporary jazz but I don't feel that there more sounds any less relevent that their more "way out" contemporaries. Clayton is fascinating in that his piano playing very much harks back to the 1950's but it is set in a context (in the way that the bass and drums play, the kind of writing, production , etc) that definately makes his type of jazz very vibrant. No lacking of blues feel or lack of swing either. It is also true to say that contemporary soul / r' n' b seems to be an influence too without detracting from the improvising credentials. (Worth bearing in mind the GC's father and uncle are no slouches either!!) Even William parker seems to be getting in on the act with his recent Organ quartet that is very much a nod to the kind of music being produced in the 50's and early sixties by the likes of Baby Face Willette and the great Fred "Hootin'& tootin'" Jackson, alveit refracted through his own personality.

        What is fascinating about these players is the fact that it makes the likes of Wynton Marsalis seem very perculiar indeed - it is as if he has been given the same old tools as everyone else yet seems unable to manage to find new ways of assembling the components. I strongly believe that we are in a "Golden Age" for jazz and see now reason why all aspects of jazz can't be equally innovative. In many despects, some of this music is far more interesting to listen to than some of the over-hyped jazz deemed to be at the coal face of it's progression. Surely, this is an indication of just how vibrant the jazz scene is in 2011?

        Comment

        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 37851

          #5
          I'm about to hit the sack right now, but I'd be interested in any clips you might like to dig up, before casting *judgement* Ian

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4242

            #6
            SA

            There are plenty of clips that you can find on Youtube. Here are a few:-


            1. Ben Allison (with the added benefit of Ron Horton on trumpet and Steve Cardenas on guitar) This represents what I was on about.

            [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_uaPHocs8&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB-QA...eature=channel


            2. Gerald Clayton


            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




            3. Anat Cohen with Howard Alden (Mainstream in the "old" sense)

            Anat on clarinet and Howard on 7-string guitar, playing the tune made famous by Julie London and Barney Kessel, at their Bargemusic duo concert August 7, 200...




            .... and now with Jason Lindner. & Omar Avital.. (This is the music she produces that I like the best and illustrates what I was trying to expand upon.)



            Anat Cohen, Poetica, Hofim, clarinet, jazz, Jason Lindner, Omer Avital, Daniel Freedman



            and with her big band. playing in a kind of up-dated 1950's style (the best arrangement on her CD "Noir") ..


            Anat on clarinet and Howard on 7-string guitar, playing the tune made famous by Julie London and Barney Kessel, at their Bargemusic duo concert August 7, 200...




            5. Russell malone (Pretty much in the Wes Montgomery vein although the choice of material isn't!!) Probably not a greta example but the music is very good.




            6. Ted Nash ~ The band might actually be LCJO but you get the idea. Different but essentially pretty straight ahead...


            Jazz composition and improvisations from Ted Nash inspired by the works of Salvador Dali.



            The Allison and Cohen track with lindner best represent what i am trying to get at.


            Cheers


            Ian

            Comment

            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 9173

              #7
              you make some interesting points Ian, and i'm familiar with the work of Ben Allison and Ted Nash ... and William Parker; but the creative interaction you highlight has happened before, and again it included the in and out, the roots and the edge ... it was the New York and Lennox nexus in the fifties with Gunther Schuller, and John Lewis the leading lights around the Third Stream as well as George Russell Giuffre Coleman Dolphy ...it was a veritable hotbed of something other than Mainstream and other than bop, bebop and post bop and hard bop .... and much very exciting and very varied music was made ...that Dolphy & Lewis Weill album the Giuffre Bley Swallow, the sympathetic response to Coleman, the Gil Evans Orchestra ... the territory for jazz was remade - the musicians were always far more interactive than the critical and sales categories would ever allow ...
              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

              Comment

              • Ian Thumwood
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 4242

                #8
                Calum

                Point taken, but was the "Mainstream" as creative back then as it is now? As i pointed out, during the 50's / 60's, the music often looked back to the kind of jazz played when many of the players had been younger. Listen to something like the Buck Clayton jam sessions which, for me, epitomizes this approach, and the soloists are all of their era with the obvious exception of players like Lee Kontiz. The recordings you mention we not mainstream then and, in many cases, present musicians who were really ahead of the curve. There has always been a jazz vanguard but I don't feel that more conservative elements in the music have been quite so forward thinking as today. Granted that musicians have always been more interactive than critical attention and sales categories would allow, but never to this extent. If you taken the example of Greg Cohen, he often works in the same kind of fields as well as being regular basis with Ornette coleman and John Zorn. The multi-instrumentalist Perry Robinson is another similar example. This felixibility never existed 50-60 years ago quite like it does to day and the level of musicianship seems to allow this. I think the playing stadard of many of these musicians is sufficiently high to allow this flexibility but it also allows a far greater degree of originality where the musicians may not be quite as "cutting edge" in their temperment. Ben Allison is an excellent example of this.

                Comment

                • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 4316

                  #9
                  "My point was that both musicians and audiences have become sophisticated with the result that the more "conversative" elements in jazz are far more adventurous than they have ever been - perhaps more than at any time in the history of jazz."

                  "sophisticated" - "conservative" - "adventurous" - "any time in the history of jazz."

                  "The question is", said Alice, "is whether you can make words mean so many things! "THE QUESTION IS", replied Humpty Dumpty dismissively , IS WHO IS TO BE MASTER, THAT IS ALL!"

                  Now playing - Max Roach "Driver Man" (Freedom Now) with the ultra conservative Coleman Hawkins on tenor, the very same neo-con who first hired Theolonious Monk - back when, followed by "Things can only get better" (Blair/D:ream) on replay especially for Ian.

                  BN.

                  Comment

                  • Ian Thumwood
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 4242

                    #10
                    Point taken with Hawkins. There is no way that Hawkins was "neo-conservative" and, up until the arrival of Miles Davis, was probably the major jazz musician who was fully recognisant with the developments in the music. The only other soloist I can think of who was like this was Budd Johnson who took on board Hawkins, Young and Parker influences and ultimately ended up playing Modal Jazz in Gil Evans orchestra on tracks like "La Navada." Elsewhere, I suppose Ellington would be a prime example of someone who developed over time. However, none of the musicians could ever be considered "conservative." Instead, they were musicians who had a penchant for more modern ideas unlike many others of their generation. Granted that there have and will always be "forward thinking" players in each generation but the point I am trying to make is that there is now a generation of musicians who are nowhere near the forefront of the developments in the music or not necessarily the most adventurous when it comes to taking solos yet they are far more creative in their approach than those generations in the past who occupied a similar position. If you look at the kind of music produced as recently as the 70's, 80's and 90's on a label like Concord, this still made little recognition of the contemporary jazz of the time albeit that the label did start to get to but more creative before it was bought out with bandleaders like Randy Sandke leading ensembles that might equally include Mike Brecker in the line up as Dan Barrett.

                    I am very fond of some of the mainstream jazz from the 50's and 60's and this obviously includes musicians such as Webster and Hawkins. You could also add the likes of the brilliant Harry "Sweets" Edison whose contibution is excpetional of the Ellington / Hodges "Back to back" record which is probably the greatest "mainstream" record in the history of jazz. However, I think the music has passed it's peak by the late 80's after a late hurrah on the Concord label and maybe even Brian Lemon's "Zephyr" stable. With so many of the great soloists in this style long since passed away , you will never match the brilliance of the records made with the giants who were around from the 30's onwards. I think you have missed the point of my argument. If you want to consider the music of the 60's, it is not the generation of max Roach I am really comparing but the likes of Vic Dickenson, Ruby Braff, Buck Clayton. You could easily argue that soloists with this amount of individualit are not around nowadays if you wish and I would not be unsympathetic to this argument. Stylistically, they were atleast a generation behind what Roach was trying to attain. My position is that there are players who fill the void that their likes would have filled 50-60 years ago but nowadays they are more informed by all strands of contemporary music and, as I stated, I feel that this has invigorated an area of jazz that the likes of Serial Apologist might have previously considered stagnant. (As illustrated on some of the clips I have posted as examples.)

                    Cheers

                    Ian

                    Comment

                    • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 9173

                      #11
                      two points:

                      as Dave Brubeck pointed out long ago in a tv interview [seen in that recent prog on BBC4] in his generation there was a history to exploit, but in earlier generations there was a history to make ...

                      Gunther Schuller argued in his Tanner Lecture that in future the virtuosity and flexibility of the next generations would be very high because jass was a significant curriculum element [indeed major] at music colleges ...

                      see
                      The Tanner Lectures: Convening the Global Conversation In Praise of Radical LiberalismRandall Kennedy, Professor of Law, Harvard Law SchoolTBD – StanfordReverend Dr. William Barber IIScriptworlds:…


                      as the history of the music develops, not only is jazz differently constituted, but the world it is constituted in is markedly different to that of the 30s and 40s in the last century ...

                      this topic reminds me of one of the central arguments in
                      Randall Collins traces the movement of philosophical thought in ancient Greece, China, Japan, India, the medieval Islamic and Jewish world, medieval Christendom, and modern Europe. What emerges from this history is a social theory of intellectual change, one that avoids both the reduction of ideas to the influences of society at large and the purely contingent local construction of meanings. Instead, Collins focuses on the social locations where sophisticated ideas are formed: the patterns of intellectual networks and their inner divisions and conflicts.


                      the centre holds out against creative heresy, the centre absorbs and accommodates the creative insight else the heresy or the centre fails, the new centre prevails .... a new creative heresy from Out There arises the centre holds ... just not Now! or even in one generation but over many years [great bedtime reading, physically heavy, encyclopaedic and closely argued, you nod off in next to no time]

                      so i am not inclined to accept simple comparisons of individual worth as the driver of change ...

                      i am also inclined to regard a group such as Mostly Other People Do The Killing as playing in the tradition [no group has got as close to the feel of the original Ornette groups]

                      a thought prompted by you argument concerns the Free Improv developments, especially in Britain and Europe, much of what they do has been absorbed as technique in the colleges, but does the music or do the musicians in Free I have a basis for further development or are they circling in a closed canyon and losing relevance?



                      i do wish there was a tongue in cheek emoticon for that last sentence!
                      According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                      Comment

                      • Ian Thumwood
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4242

                        #12
                        Calum

                        I think that the free jazz / improvised music as performed in the 60's lost relevance ages ago - as you suggest with bands such as MOPDTK are now very much part of the traditions albeit refracted through the sensibilities of the 21st Century. Granted the music does change over time and I would stand by my assessment that the jazz produced in 2011 is frequently as good as any being made since 1917. The Brubeck comment s very salient as touches on what I was saying. Today's players are not quite as closed to stylistic differences as may have been the case 50 years ago or indeed 15-20 years ago. The whole idea of what is "modern" , "Way out" or "cutting edge" is blurred and it doesn't really matter any more. Musicians are far more open minded than they were 20 years ago for reasons due to education, availability of the internet, whatever. There are far more possibilities for exploration than in the past and I feel that audiences / "the market place" is more responsive in a way that it wasn't in the past.

                        Based on a lot of the music that I have been listening too and indeed what my Dad is now into, you can definately sense that the lines of demarcation between those of a more "progressive" bent (put Peter Evans and his mates in this categor if you want) and those who are more comfortable in more traditional modes of jazz. In the past, Humphrey Lyttelton could be chastised for incorporating Bruce Turner in his band. Nowadays, someone like Anat Cohen is equally at home playing in Hot 5 tribute bands, Howard Alden, Brazilian Choro, or mixing it with Jason Lindner and John Scofield. I don't think the categories of Trad, Mainstream, Modern matter any more and there is no stigma attacthed to crossing a stylistic boundary. Brubeck is correct in his perception but don't you think that , rather than becoming homogenuous, there are elements in jazz that are far more interesting to listen to in 2011 than they might have been in 1955, 1965, 1975 or even 1985? There will always be those that strive to push the music into newer directions but I sense that there is a degree of exploration / inquisitiveness that has become apparent in other areas of jazz which are fresh and exciting.

                        Comment

                        • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 9173

                          #13
                          speaking personally Ian, definitely no ... jazz has always been exciting for me, the supposed fallow 70s for example is a myth that Ethan Iverson demolished ... btw Third Stream was not way out in either a jazz or classical sense, it explored what was possible at the centre, and John Lewis's subtlety has always mitigated against the recognition of his formal and structural innovations in his compositions and arrangements ... but i do think the palette is richer overall now, and i am unsurprised that after several generations of college educated artists coming into the music the ideas and creativity are shaping up to the 21st Century markets for music .... the audience has also changed remarkably ...
                          According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                          Comment

                          • Ian Thumwood
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 4242

                            #14
                            Sorry, Calum, but I should have made it clearer but I was actually referring to "Mainstream jazz" when I listed the dates, not the music in general.

                            Comment

                            • charles t
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 592

                              #15
                              Thank you, very, very much for leading me to Ted Nash's Seven Shades cd, Ian!

                              Many years ago I took my kids to Disneyland (!) because the Louie Bellson Orch was appearing. During the opening set, this 15-16-year old kid in the sax section was being very prominently featured.

                              During the break, I asked this other guy from the sax section (at a nearby urinal!!!) who was that kid.

                              "Ted Nash. F*&^^g incredible!"

                              Comment

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