... there are no solids in the universe, there's not even a suggestion of a solid ...

[Quarky]

In many ways I admire Lewis for harnessing the ideas in Classical music so openly.

. Curiously I think Ornette's earliest "Classical" pieces were made under the guidance of John Lewis and, from recollection, I don;t think "Dedication to writers and poets" is a particularly good piece of music. Funny, but to my ears, they both were inclinded to each other's music bit Ornette can't really do Classical composition (or atelast in te eaely 60's - haven't heard stuff like "skies of America")

Fascinating insights Ian, but I am confused (which is not an unusual condition). When you state "Ornette's earliest "Classical" pieces", is this "classic" in the sense of classical music - you know Bach, Mozart etc, or perhaps Classic modern jazz as opposed to free Jazz?

I did see Ornette at a concert a couple of years ago, where he performed a piece of Bach, but I have never thought of him as third stream or whatever. However this is an extract from an interview I have just located :
"Coleman: I've written lots of music that some people call "classical music." I call it "music that guys read." For the last three years, I've had those people very interested in my writing. Since I think of myself as a composer, I feel really good. I've had lots of guys call me up. I've gotten two or three commissions to write things. I've written lots of movie scores."

Would you mind kindly clarifying this for me?

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

The association between these two musicians has seemed a bit odd to me. For all the "harmolodic" theories, Ornette's music has always sounded very organic and unschooled to me. Alot of his playing is rooted in the blues and I really believe that if you can get someone like Charley Patton, you can also get Ornette. Lewis seems to be the complete opposite with his music locked in to European classical music forms and harmonies. There is a logic within his playing and a conciseness too which, I suppose, you could mistake for hims being too prissy.

As I implied earlier, I wouldn't have thought a piano trio album or a solo record would have been interesting but the interest in Lewis' music rests in the way in which his instrument dovetails in to the other instruments in the quartet. I don't find Lewis' work over cerebral or cold nor unswinging. I just don't think he is a particularly interesting voice outside of the quartet - I'm basing this on his earlier work with Gillespie and Parker as well as with groups like (I think) Modern Jazz Sextet. The style of playing is of it's time and, for me atleast, at a point when perhaps the piano was trying to re-establish itself by the question marks presented by Bud Powell's radical approach. From that era, I don't feel Lewis was one of the stand-out figures and perhaps you could equate him with someone like Count Basie whose style was essential to his ensemble - albeit I feel John Lewis was a much better pianist than Basie. Some pianists are great soloists whereas others can serve an ensemble particularly well. By the standards of the 50's / 60's, I feel Lewis did this admirably. However, I don't honestly think that the MJQ quite reached the levels of music making acheived by this outfit. Granted that this quartet couldn't have existed without the MJQ, this remains one of the criminally under-rated recordings from the 1960's. (as they could play Free jazz as the last track will testify:-

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Today's logical fallacy...

"Argumentum ad novitatem"

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

me? i say nuddin! nuddin about that Frissel sleep therapy stuff! Nuddin!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Oddly I was listening to NPR Jazz Piano last night to John Lewis playing solo piano...just superb. And was reminded of his remarkable production of REAL compositions, inside and out of the MJQ from "Two Bass Hit" onwards....film scores, ballet, et al, lest we fkng forget.

BN.

BTW, Is it true that JRR is now sponsored by SAGA?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...yep indeed, and he made a series of albums based on Bach Preludes & Fugues from WTC on Phillips which are now very hard to find .... and these contain some of the most beautiful music making i have ever heard ... piano, guitar, vilon/cello and bass .... to die for and to!

[Ian Thumwood]

Oddball

This is the music by Ornette that I had in mind:-

[Serial_Apologist]

Oddball

This is the music by Ornette that I had in mind:-

Not very good??? How very dare you!!!

It sounds surprisingly Schoenbergian.

[Ian Thumwood]

S-A

Well, the first time I heard that I was checking out a lot of Classical music and was heavily in to "Quartet for the end of time." As much as I love Ornette's music, I find this stuff a bit of a drag. I don't like Schoenberg either, though!

[Quarky]

Oddball

This is the music by Ornette that I had in mind:-

Knock me down with an (atonal) feather (or bow string)! This is an extra dimension to Ornette that I never would have suspected. But may be very current, with the work of Trish Clowes etc.

Well I see Alyn Shipton in his book covers this side of Ornette very well. Got some rapid reading to do to get up to speed!

Thanks Ian for putting me in the picture.

[Serial_Apologist]

Knock me down with an (atonal) feather (or bow string)! This is an extra dimension to Ornette that I never would have suspected. But may be very current, with the work of Trish Clowes etc.

Well I see Alyn Shipton in his book covers this side of Ornette very well. Got some rapid reading to do to get up to speed!

Thanks Ian for putting me in the picture.

This would seem to be a unique case of, don't blame either the message or the messenger!

[Quarky]

Struggling to get up to speed, as stated.

But getting back to John Lewis, it may be significant that Alyn in his book mentions Dave Brubeck directly after John Lewis and MJQ. Both have connections with Classical music, and possibly this put them in good stead in terms of influencing US musical establishment, and appealing to the white majority audience? And this appears to have helped Ornette, once he had been championed by Lewis and Schuller. In terms of fame and fortune, I'm sure you are more aware than me, that these desirable attributes are not awarded to the most deserving.

And getting back to baroque, what appealed to me about Geoffrey's programme, was the approach -- if you like Purcell, Handel and Bach (putting the old warhorses on one side), then try this!--

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not very good??? How very dare you!!!

It sounds surprisingly Schoenbergian.

Yes; if I'd not been told the composer's name, I would've suggested a recently-discovered work by the young Kurt Weill or Krenek, or perhaps one of Paul Dessau's better efforts. I've only recently become aware of Ornette Coleman, and the more I hear, the more impressed I am: this is excellent stuff!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

.....