... there are no solids in the universe, there's not even a suggestion of a solid ...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

at 830 tonite Alyn is later than usual but makes up for it with a generous pick of modern jazz and only one Kenny ball track

Geoffrey does the MJQ ...whooooopeee for me!

Julian does Baroque but not a single track from the John Lewis canon ...

Jon3 invites you to nod along to Bill Frisell & The Beautiful Dreamers Trio

[Byas'd Opinion]

I was at the JLU recording session.

I thought the Lighthouse Trio's contribution was very good, particularly when they got more heated and stretched out a bit.

The discussion comparing baroque and jazz improvisation techniques was interesting, but to me would have been better as a standalone programme or an interval talk in a concert rather than as part of one of the BBC's few jazz programmes.

[Serial_Apologist]

Julian does Baroque but not a single track from the John Lewis canon ...

John Lewis wrote a few canons... and fugues...

[Quarky]

I was at the JLU recording session.

I thought the Lighthouse Trio's contribution was very good, particularly when they got more heated and stretched out a bit.

The discussion comparing baroque and jazz improvisation techniques was interesting, but to me would have been better as a standalone programme or an interval talk in a concert rather than as part of one of the BBC's few jazz programmes.

In my book, this was one of the best JLU programmes

Trying to sound as stuffy as possible, this was in the best traditions of Radio 3: informative, educative, and very enjoyable.

Did Geoffrey cover John Lewis in the MJQ programme I wonder?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Couldn't agree more Odball, JLU terrific and with Tim Garland and Trio Lighthouse with the Edinburgh Quartet ... the spirits of Gunther Schuller and John Lewis infused the air as i listened ... i really like Tim garlands work as both performer and composer .... shame that we did not get more from JJ on piano ...


Geoffrey did a bit about John Lewis and Bach but that topic is worth a programme in itself ... still a fine run through some MJQ recordings

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

not baroque but a pearl nonetheless

[Quarky]

Geoffrey did a bit about John Lewis and Bach but that topic is worth a programme in itself ... still a fine run through some MJQ recordings

Agreed completely Calum. I learnt quite a bit not only about MJQ but also about the baroque period from Geoffrey's programme.

I think John Lewis and the MJQ could form the subject of a COTW, co-hosted by DM and Geoffrey. We've had John Adams and Charlie Parker, but John Lewis I think would be more up the street of the typical R3 listener.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Oddball, sadly, the Jazz Library on Lewis (which covered a lot of ground regarding his composition) has not been included in the online podcasts. But you'll get some clues as to what we covered from the playlist: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gnr6j

[Quarky]

Oddball, sadly, the Jazz Library on Lewis (which covered a lot of ground regarding his composition) has not been included in the online podcasts. But you'll get some clues as to what we covered from the playlist: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gnr6j

Thanks Alyn. That would have been a very intersting programme. Of course, it's not just the music, but the one liner insights of the musician and presenter that I found so interesting in Jazz Library.

Pursuing my zany idea, a more extensive programme including his classical influences treated on the same level as his jazz influences might attract a wider audience.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... some interesting background on The Lenox School of Jazz sheds light on Lewis's activities


here

and here

and in this excellent book

[Ian Thumwood]

I would have to admit that the MJQ are a bit of a blind spot as far as I am concerned. In their favour I think the line-up they chose very much set a precedent and this combination of instruments does encourage the employment of counterpoint. As far as soloists, Milt Jackson always managed to play with a soulfulness that I found appealing but my experience of his work was more through the recordings he made with Pablo in the 1970's than the MJQ itself. There was a good duo album he made with Oscar Peterson called "Aint but a few of us left" which is one of the best albums I've heard by Peterson - he is certainly more of an interesting musician unaccompanied as opposed to the too comfortable stylist be becomes with bass and drums.

Both Percy Heath and Connie Kay were also complete musicians and whilst I can appreciate his affection for baroque styles of music, John Lewis takes a lot of attention before you can appreciate him as a pianist. Their music does seem a bit twee these days and over-polite. Granted that they blazed a path forward in thier oeuvre, I much prefer other groups of this ilk such as the quartet with Kenny Barron and Stefon Harris. Their Bach album surpasses both MJQ and the pretty functional Jacques Loussier . However, I think that albums made on Blue Note ("Oblique" and especially "Happenings" - the latter being amongst the most under-rated albums of the 1960's) by Bobby Hutcherson with Herbie Hancock this this kind of music well beyond the realms of MJQ both from their more open concept of playing and ability as soloists. For my money, the music on "Happenings" trumps anything the MJQ produced even though I do like the music of the earlier group. It does seem perverse that the reputation of MJQ seems to endure whereas Hutcherson's albums only seem to be known by a few. John Lewis seemed quite content to play within his comfort zone and the within the limits of his technique - contrasting his playing with Hancock's on these albums is quite revealing with the younger musician probably taking the music into areas that may have astounded Lewis for all his affinity for the avant garde of the late 50's. I'm not convinved Lewis would have really have been able to have forged himself such a reputation without the vehicle of the MJQ to more fully serve his expression that his own piano playing.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would have to admit that the MJQ are a bit of a blind spot as far as I am concerned. In their favour I think the line-up they chose very much set a precedent and this combination of instruments does encourage the employment of counterpoint. As far as soloists, Milt Jackson always managed to play with a soulfulness that I found appealing but my experience of his work was more through the recordings he made with Pablo in the 1970's than the MJQ itself. There was a good duo album he made with Oscar Peterson called "Aint but a few of us left" which is one of the best albums I've heard by Peterson - he is certainly more of an interesting musician unaccompanied as opposed to the too comfortable stylist be becomes with bass and drums.

Both Percy Heath and Connie Kay were also complete musicians and whilst I can appreciate his affection for baroque styles of music, John Lewis takes a lot of attention before you can appreciate him as a pianist. Their music does seem a bit twee these days and over-polite. Granted that they blazed a path forward in thier oeuvre, I much prefer other groups of this ilk such as the quartet with Kenny Barron and Stefon Harris. Their Bach album surpasses both MJQ and the pretty functional Jacques Loussier . However, I think that albums made on Blue Note ("Oblique" and especially "Happenings" - the latter being amongst the most under-rated albums of the 1960's) by Bobby Hutcherson with Herbie Hancock this this kind of music well beyond the realms of MJQ both from their more open concept of playing and ability as soloists. For my money, the music on "Happenings" trumps anything the MJQ produced even though I do like the music of the earlier group. It does seem perverse that the reputation of MJQ seems to endure whereas Hutcherson's albums only seem to be known by a few. John Lewis seemed quite content to play within his comfort zone and the within the limits of his technique - contrasting his playing with Hancock's on these albums is quite revealing with the younger musician probably taking the music into areas that may have astounded Lewis for all his affinity for the avant garde of the late 50's. I'm not convinved Lewis would have really have been able to have forged himself such a reputation without the vehicle of the MJQ to more fully serve his expression that his own piano playing.

I largely agree Ian. That said, I was to say the least surprised by the Fontessa Suite track played at the end of the programme, foreshadowing as it did aspects of free-form as early as 1956.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i think you should both wash out your easr with a strong carbolic soap!

interesting that Lewis was a great admirer of the Basie Swing machine ... the first edition MJQ [with Ray Brown and Kenny Clarke] was the Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra rhythm section

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

I think John Lewis sits in a pivotal point in jazz that sits between "Modern" and "Tradition." I wasn't aware that Lewis was an admirer of Basie (but who from that generation of jazz musicians wasn't if they wanted to understand exactly where the fulcrum of the change in the music at that point in time had been) but I think it is alway worth noting that Lewis got in to jazz after hearing McKinney's Cottonpickers play live. I am always staggered by this as you would never have considered he went back quite so far. In many ways I admire Lewis for harnessing the ideas in Classical music so openly.

I like the link to "Lonely Woman" but it is intriguing that none of these musicians are responding to the rhythmic approach of Ornette and Jackson's first solo is simply played over the D pedal. From recollection, Ornette does the same thing on his version but the approach is far more radical. This is a hard tune to play and perhaps it is Percy Heath who seems to understand this music more. Curiously I think Ornette's earliest "Classical" pieces were made under the guidance of John Lewis and, from recollection, I don;t think "Dedication to writers and poets" is a particularly good piece of music. Funny, but to my ears, they both were inclinded to each other's music bit Ornette can't really do Classical composition (or atelast in te eaely 60's - haven't heard stuff like "skies of America") and Lewis couldn't do free jazz!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Lewis as far as i know did not do 'free' jazz whether this was because he could not is i think unlikely; he was a great admirer of OC from the very start ..