Women in Jazz

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Really? Well, in that case glad to hear it and that "there's not a long way to go". Jessica Williams said that she and other female jazz musicians she talks to get judged on their looks in addition to ability and ageing is a discrete concern. Bookers mutter, "we thought you were younger." I dont think anyone ever said that to say, John Surman.

But, glad that doesn't happen here either. Its an equal opportunity post feminist level playing field as we say in New Labour.

BN.

[Tenor Freak]

I wonder if the move to the academy away from the chitlin circuit has helped boost the number of women working in this music? And not just as singers.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Bruce, I'm sure thats a lot to do with it but even so, jazz is still not exactly "family friendly" and that still falls back largely on the woman. Can they sustain a career in the longer term? Classical orchs often have c. 30% plus women players but the touring schedule is cited for the lack of career and drop out.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

Although there have always been women in playing a part in jazz (not just playing but managaing as was the case wwith Gladyse Hampton or Fletcher Henderson's trumpet playing wife writing out the charts) I really feel that we are now in a situation where the media is genuinely more interested in women who play. I would grant you that a significant majoity are vocalists but even if you toed a Copper-esque line, I would put to you that a large number of these singers a genuine musicians as opposed to a pretty face stuck out in front of a band. As a rule, the jazz public is probably amongst the most discerning and I would argue that this audience will be intolerent of the notion of "canaries" but will support female instrumentalists perhaps more vehemently than their male counterparts.

Part of this is due to changing attitudes (I've only ever heard of any kind of hosstility dished out towards female players and that was an idiot at Vienne who heckled an all-girl student group ) and the audience would generally think it amiss if a college band didn't have a peppering of girls amongst the lads. However, I think the most significant factor is that women jazz musicians are not only getting better but are also instrumental in shaping the way jazz develops. The notion of the "old bopper" that you read about in books written by Ronnie Scot is a concept that is atleast 40 years out of date. I would also put to you that the audience for jazz is perhaps younger and therefore not likely to be bound up by sexist stereotypes.

I would suggest that anyone doubting me should attempt to log on to Amazon and simply tap in best selling jazz records and see what proportion are by women. I would suggest that women probably account for a fair percentage of jazz sells. I wouldn't out too much store in to what Jessica Williams might have said as she is a bit wierd anyway.

I also want to add that what kind of industry would you call family-friendly these days? Most people have to work more than 45 hours a week as a minimum (working 9-5 is generally shunned by most employers I've worked for as you can't do what you need to acheive in this time frame even with the best time management) and in my profession evening and weekend working is the norm. Women still manage to have careers in construction. I don't see jazz as being an different especially in an industry as hostile and confrontation as QS-ing.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I would suggest that a jazz life is a world away from the "demands" of a QS? The touring, the financial insecurity, the asocial hours, "resting" et al. How is that achieved against the desire for family etc. Men traditionally, jazz and otherwise, left/dumped that role to the woman...would the reverse apply? There are social factors and economics far deeper than the music.

As to Ms Williams being "weird"...

Foot to mouth.

BN

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

Given that working in construction (and bearing in mind I don't work for the the private sector) I would suggest long hours and working away from home make family life difficult especially if you regularly have to give up weekends. This is the way of the work these days - having a job means you need to work long hours. I work with trying to juggle family / work are frowned on by some colleagues just because the can't work extended hours. Don't think that being a musician are any different from being in any kind of job these days whether you are a doctor, accountant, work on the tools, etc. Everyone works extended hours as it is the way of the world nowadays as family life if not regarded as the be all and end all of everything in 2013. Employment culture changed dramatically in the privaste sector in the 1990's and the situation has never returned to the sensible lelvels of the 80's when I started my training., If anything, the availability of IT effectively means employers often expect you available whenever practical. I'm sure this is even the case in Wales.

I grant you playing jazz may mean working in clubs but most jazz musicians these days are teachers in universities who hold down a steady income. I would suggest that there has probably never been a better oppotunity to play jazz given the number of universities, jazz workshops , week-end courses. I've never seen any statitistics to prove the theory, but I would ave thought there is more gainful employment for jazz musicians now than in the 1950's and 60's when the demise of the big bands ensured a lack of employment opportunity and the only alternative seemed to be the studios. With posts more readily available in universities, I would have thought that this would have mitigated against the pressures you suggest.

[Flyposter]

".....most jazz musicians"

I know B.Liar wanted to open a university on every street corner, but really

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Hey Prof, blow that thing!

Just to stress that my points above have nothing to do with the abilities of women in jazz, just drawing attention to the constraints. I think Bruce and Ian are right to draw attention to the new academe infrastructure. Whether that produces a different kind of career structure (and music?) is a mute point. Will jazz become like journalism requiring a first degree and then a post grad diploma to enter it?

Would Lester have passed his Oxford entry? Just joking.


BN.

[Tenor Freak]

I was thinking that the "career structure" (sic) for jazz musicians in the future would resemble those of the classical musicians. Not in terms of the orchestras, but more the chamber ensembles where a lot of them include women. For example, the leader/conductor of the wind band I play for is female, and she's a violinist who doubles on trombone (!). She specialises in playing baroque music and I am fairly sure that she's played on In Tune recently.

I would think that one of the welcome developments of the way things have changed is that there is a lot less of the old attitudes and misogyny; and much less patronising.

[Tenor Freak]

Another thing: I would think that a bachelor's degree would become almost an entry requirement as it's mostly the colleges where the big bands are based. There are some county youth big bands and NYJO of course but it's pot luck whether you can find one locally to develop those reading/ensemble skills. Perhaps in future there may be some musicians who get into playing jazz from the classical stream...I get the feeling the barriers between the two aren't so high these days.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ive just read that when Jaki Byard was teaching a class of women students, one of them "noodled" on her sax during his demonstration of some changes. He whipped out a large knife and shouted, "who's fkg up my solo, you NEVER do that!

Discipline is what we need.

BN.

[Byas'd Opinion]

Laura MacDonald (who these days seems to be teaching more than performing) said that when she was starting out at Berklee in the early-to-mid 90s, she initially had great difficulty being accepted at jam sessions:

"Is it okay if sit in?"
"We don't need a singer."
"I'm an alto player."
"Oh."

Here she is talking about women and the contemporary jazz scene: "Women play jazz, music world in shock!"

[John Wright]

Considering the title of the thread, let's hear a woman of jazz (trumpet and vocal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvGjH1hi4_o

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

considering the thread was initiated to honour women in jazz, and there are many great such contributors to the art, on International Women's Day can we stick to acknowledging their fine contributions please

[or else innit .. The Host]

[Ian Thumwood]

Flyposter

Good to hear from you again.

I would suggest that about 80% of jazz musicians nowadays much be attached to some form of education establishment. Here are a few examples of notable women jazz musician who work in education. You can click on the links to find out more:-

1. Nicole Mitchell:-
Please scroll down to the bottom of the page on this link.

http://nicolemitchell.com/curriculum-vitae

2. Geri Allen (Information about her work in education on this page.)

http://www.geriallen.com/bio.php

3. Blog concerning lessons given with Ingrid Jensen

http://jazztrumpetproject.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/my-lesson-with-ingrid-jensen.html

4. Link to bio of Jenny Schienman, a favourite of Calum's, mentioning education and taking on board students.

http://jennyscheinman.com/bio/

On the few occasions I've picked up "Downbeat" I 've always been amazed at just how much the magazine caters for music courses and universities and I've even seen supplements in the magazine outlining the best courses for jazz. I think education is perhaps as significant now as clubs may have been in the past and it's hardly surprising that this has allowed women to flourish in the music. I can understand Bluesnik's persepctive but my impression is that these perceptions are perhaps things of the past. All-girl groups are not really a novelty anymore and when the do materialise at jess festivals, the results are often impressive as the Mosiac project suggests. I also would mention the organist Rhoda Scott who was touring with an all-female band which included the saxophonist Sohpie Allours who I have praised on this site before. (Scott is another musician I know from witnessing in person who is heavily involved in music educuation in France.)