it just is not Jazz and it is ignorance or deception to make such a claim

[Stephen Whitaker]

In the words of the late Anthony Wilson: ‘You’re entitled to an opinion, but your opinion is sh*t.’

You can say whatever you want about serious jazz, but you have to accept that freedom extends to everyone else.

Sometimes saying ‘now that’s just silly’ is all that’s required, and if that's an ad hominem response ....tough.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Calm down dears!

They are mixing Stan Kenton in my Johnny B Goode....Chuck Berry, top Jazz guitarist.

BN.

[MrGongGong]

This is the kind of comment that I find hard to take seriously and which substantiates my perspective that the criticism of singers is really ill-judged and shows the lack of recognition of singers as genuine musicians. There seems to be a genuine mistrust that singers are actually performing jazz - even from an admirer of Maggie Nichols who too often does perform outside this ouevre to my understanding.

I think you are confusing things somewhat
nothing to do with whether Jazz singers are "genuine" musicians or not
and not a matter of value of the music they sing
just a matter of taste

i'm sure it will survive without me "liking" it .......
and maybe I should have qualified (but not wanting to bore folk again with the same stuff) my remark with something about the context in which one hears the music.

What "Jazz" is or isn't is the matter of considerable debate anyway, in the improvised music world there are many who have arrived from Jazz (the Evan Parkers of this world) and some who have arrived through completely different route.

[french frank]

You go find evidence of Ornette appearing on the Third and I have a hat here that will roast nicely.

Rather like the Richard III debate - prove he did... you prove he didn't &c.

Again quoting Carpenter - a noted jazz fan, and player, as Alyn knows, p230, re the start of JRR in December 1964, 'regular jazz broadcasts in the Third itself had been going on since early in 1963'.

Okay, that's not 1961, but it's a good 18 months before JRR started, which rebuts what you said ('Nobody discovered that it was not weird to like Charlie Parker, Jackie McLean or Ornette Coleman on the Third Programme in 1961 or at any time before 1964.') Carpenter's book is not a history of jazz on the Third Programme, so he doesn't name every artist heard in the 'regular broadcasts' before JRR started, but they would certainly have been playing someone (so far he has mentioned Morton and Bill Russo).

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...thanks ff, happy to admit to a faulty memory but we certainly listened to jazz on the the Third Programme before '64 ....

[french frank]

...thanks ff, happy to admit to a faulty memory but we certainly listened to jazz on the the Third Programme before '64 ....

A further quote, dating from 1966, by Richard Marriott, of the Department of Sound Broadcasting(?) and cited by Carpenter, p 235:

" A recent letter ... complained about the fact that jazz programmes ... are frequently dropped or cut...Most other countries give much more time to jazz than we do ...Taking account of the attitude to jazz here, I don't think we can do more, but the interested minority - and they really are interested - regard it as a derisory amount. If we cannot do more for them we should at least protect what they do get."

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

In the 60s, being of that crew cut age, I listened to Radio France, Frank Tunot etc., FAR better than the BBC... with concerts, Miles, Trane, Basie from Antibes on a sunday night. Jimmy Smith, Lou Bennet, Ray Charles, Mose Allison at tea time....OK, some cheeky Francey Hardy too...but she had great hair.

The BBC were always tokenistic self serving Fk. Ups covering their backs. No change...

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

is this the Danish jazz you referrred to Tenor F?

yep El Senor anywhere you could find it ... and especially French movies ...

[eighthobstruction]

Calm down dears!

They are mixing Stan Kenton in my Johnny B Goode....Chuck Berry, top Jazz guitarist.

BN.

Yes, handbags....one with a little bit of excrement on it [shame on you]....dying swan??, or just dead duck....t'aint jazz.....

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

oh geroff and geron with yuze .... most life on dis here bored in months ....

[eighthobstruction]

Ok sift thro' some jaz....http://www.maxjazz.com/

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Totally off the point...or maybe not,

Ive been listening a LOT to Mal Waldron lately, esp his first four albums on Prestige and the later 80s material. Magic, not sure why I passed this by at the time.

BN.

In fairness to Alyn, he did a very good career profile and interview with Mal a few years back. In a hotel bar as I remember.

[Byas'd Opinion]

I think the problem's not just the shortage of jazz on Radio Three, but also to some extent the BBC's decision in the mid-90s to turn Radio Two into Radio One for grown-ups. Up until that point, the natural home for light music was Radio Two, but once the high heid yins decided to spurn the pre-rock-and-roll generations (essentially anyone born before the Second World War), there was no natural home for it on the BBC Radio.

The RRB stuff is, to me, from the borderlands between jazz and light music. Once upon a time you would have been just as likely to find it on Radio Two, now there's no place for it to go but Radio Three's jazz programmes. The Glasgow Improvisers' Orchestra, who are on Jon3 on Monday, are another, very different, case of music from the edges of jazz (they certainly don't describe themselves as jazz), but at least they're unequivocally Radio Three music. If they weren't on Jon3 their natural home would be "Hear and Now".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think the problem's not just the shortage of jazz on Radio Three, but also to some extent the BBC's decision in the mid-90s to turn Radio Two into Radio One for grown-ups. Up until that point, the natural home for light music was Radio Two, but once the high heid yins decided to spurn the pre-rock-and-roll generations (essentially anyone born before the Second World War), there was no natural home for it on the BBC Radio.

The RRB stuff is, to me, from the borderlands between jazz and light music. Once upon a time you would have been just as likely to find it on Radio Two, now there's no place for it to go but Radio Three's jazz programmes. The Glasgow Improvisers' Orchestra, who are on Jon3 on Monday, are another, very different, case of music from the edges of jazz (they certainly don't describe themselves as jazz), but at least they're unequivocally Radio Three music. If they weren't on Jon3 their natural home would be "Hear and Now".

Good post, ByOp

I think Calum's OP reflects on a point that also arose with the John Williams CotW thread: what, exactly, is R3 for? Is it genuinely preferable to include JW and RRB at the expense of Bernard Herrmann or Jackie McLean? This isn't getting on any "high horses", it's deciding on the purpose - on the heart, soul and mind - of the network we want to adore and be astonished by.

[french frank]

I think the problem's not just the shortage of jazz on Radio Three, but also to some extent the BBC's decision in the mid-90s to turn Radio Two into Radio One for grown-ups.

More immediately, it was the decision to turn R1 into pop for teenie boppers (15-25s), thus narrowing its age range. All the ageing pop DJs moved to R2 - taking with them the older R1 audience. Lo! R2 reborn as 'pop for adults', with no place for 'light music', be it jazz or light classics/orchestral.

The fact that it then became 'the Nation's Favourite radio station', attracting 15m listeners last quarter (cf the late 90s when it was had 8-9m, with R1 then the nation's favourite) and you can see why the 'dross' (note the quotes) that was unsuitable for R2's pop image got shunted off to Radio 3 to take away the station's raison d'être. And why when, subsequently, I haplessly expressed the view that Andy Kershaw's show was more suitable for Radio 1 (whence it had come), it was considered an insult to AK, rather than a reflection on the seismic changes which had resulted in the changes at Radio 3.